What's jesus's primary message?

[nobspeople]

One a different thread, ostend said:

At the risk of proposing another heresy, I don't believe the primary message Jesus preached was to get people saved so they can enter the celestial heaven after they die. Yes, it's important, who wants to go to hell? But, it was not Jesus's primary message.

Who wants to go to hell? Indeed. Likely no one 'wants to', which is one reason christianity is as successful as it is: fear of hell (throw in guilt and you have a winner, baby!).

That aside, it's taught jesus came to earth (god became man and other malarkey that not every one believes) to be a sacrifice for mankind. Sacrifice for what? Their sins, it seems. This would, again, seem to open a pathway to heaven.
But, if, as osteng believes, that's not jesus's primary message, what was it?
Was it successful?
I don't know of anything else he did, aside from starting a religion which, successful as it may seem when counting heads in pews, it's not difficult to do as the testament of the myriad of other religions that existed before and after his lifetime.

[brunumb]

Jesus being the embodiment of God's message and we being the embodiment of Christ's message means that God still does what He does with so much success through each and everyone. This is part of one package called creation. In there we have so many other things including justice and mercy, life and death.

What are the measures of this success that you are claiming? There are measures that could be used to suggest that God/Jesus has failed. The decline of Christianity in what some regard as a Christian nation would be one of them.

[Noose001]

Common understanding does not mean that everyone experienced something. It just means that people are accepting the same explanation for someone's experience. You have not provided any way to establish the truth of an experience. What people believe or trust can be false. We need a definitive way of weeding those false experiences out.

Common should mean 'experienced' by many or majority.

[Noose001]

What are the measures of this success that you are claiming? There are measures that could be used to suggest that God/Jesus has failed. The decline of Christianity in what some regard as a Christian nation would be one of them.

Q. Where did Jesus or God ever claim christianity as a religion to follow?!!
A red herring?!!

[brunumb]

What are the measures of this success that you are claiming? There are measures that could be used to suggest that God/Jesus has failed. The decline of Christianity in what some regard as a Christian nation would be one of them.

Q. Where did Jesus or God ever claim christianity as a religion to follow?!!
A red herring?!!

Nope. Just recognition of failure on the part of God/Jesus.

[Noose001]

There are a few nuances that must be considered. For instance, if people experience an overwhelming sense of joy and peace while meditating or praying, those feelings are real because they are directly experienced. However, any god or spirit that might be attributed as the cause of those feelings will be imaginary until demonstrated otherwise. So, even though such experiences and feelings are real, their failure to distinguish gods or spirits as anything other than imaginary disqualifies them as evidence.

So is consciousness demonstrable?

Again, it is important to consider the nuance. The absence of a thing describes a condition of reality in a particular space and time. It is that condition which is real. When no visible light exists in a particular space and time, the absence of visible light existing there is a real condition of that reality.

So do you think it was dark and silence 'before' the universe began?

IOW, do you think there was reality before the universe began?

[bluegreenearth]

So is consciousness demonstrable?

Your own consciousness is demonstrable to yourself because you directly experience it. However, the precise cause of consciousness has yet to be conclusively demonstrated.

So do you think it was dark and silence 'before' the universe began?

IOW, do you think there was reality before the universe began?

I'm not aware of evidence that would justify any answer to your question as being more than conjecture.

[Noose001]

Your own consciousness is demonstrable to yourself because you directly experience it. However, the precise cause of consciousness has yet to be conclusively demonstrated.

Ok.

I'm not aware of evidence that would justify any answer to your question as being more than conjecture.

Darkness being nothing, it never started to exist. So it was definately dark before the universe began. And as you declared already, darkness is real, there was reality before the universe.

[bluegreenearth]

Darkness being nothing, it never started to exist. So it was definately dark before the universe began. And as you declared already, darkness is real, there was reality before the universe.

Darkness describes a condition in reality when there exists an absence of visible light at a particular space and time but not necessarily the absence of anything else. If there were no reality, then darkness couldn't exist because it requires a reality in which the absence of visible light could occur. Therefore, if there were no reality "before" the Big Bang, then the condition described as darkness couldn't have existed then. However, I'm unaware of there being sufficient evidence available to justify any claim about what did or did not exist prior to the Big Bang. So, the claim that darkness existed before the universe began is conjecture.

*Note: This discussion is obviously off-topic from the OP. I don't recall if it was me who first departed away from the OP but apologize for my contribution.

[William]

One a different thread, ostend said:

At the risk of proposing another heresy, I don't believe the primary message Jesus preached was to get people saved so they can enter the celestial heaven after they die. Yes, it's important, who wants to go to hell? But, it was not Jesus's primary message.

Who wants to go to hell? Indeed. Likely no one 'wants to', which is one reason christianity is as successful as it is: fear of hell (throw in guilt and you have a winner, baby!).

That aside, it's taught jesus came to earth (god became man and other malarkey that not every one believes) to be a sacrifice for mankind. Sacrifice for what? Their sins, it seems. This would, again, seem to open a pathway to heaven.
But, if, as osteng believes, that's not jesus's primary message, what was it?
Was it successful?
I don't know of anything else he did, aside from starting a religion which, successful as it may seem when counting heads in pews, it's not difficult to do as the testament of the myriad of other religions that existed before and after his lifetime.

Some claim that this passage from gospel Luke represents his primary message:

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Jesus is referring to Zacchaeus here. Note that he is referred to as "a son of Abraham", in other words, a Jew. Jesus came specifically to save the Jews.

Later in the same chapter we find this:

Luke 19:26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’

One has to wonder why this shouldn't be considered Jesus' primary message.

I am not convinced that the Jesus we read of in the gospels intended to start a new religion. It seems to me that his goal was to reform Judaism. It wasn't until after that failed that his followers, and particularly Paul and those who wrote using his name, decided to create a new religion. Up from the ashes of failure so to speak.


Tcg

On the surface it appears this may be the case, but I wonder if the premise is correct in that Jesus' mission was to 'reform Judaism', as it appears Jesus was not very religious in his approach of "things to do with the subject of God" and he appeared to be equally critical of both major branches of Judaism. and its religiosity,

The way Christianity went was the way of the Romans and Greeks, who had a culture steeped in worshiping human gods...beings who looked human but were superhuman.

We know the influence was real - and thus we can appreciate having to keep the idea that biblical Jesus - while perhaps modelled upon a real personality, was not about reforming Jewish thinking into accepting the idea that God could be worshipped as a human effigy.

[William]

Darkness being nothing, it never started to exist. So it was definately dark before the universe began. And as you declared already, darkness is real, there was reality before the universe.

Darkness describes a condition in reality when there exists an absence of visible light at a particular space and time but not necessarily the absence of anything else. If there were no reality, then darkness couldn't exist because it requires a reality in which the absence of visible light could occur. Therefore, if there were no reality "before" the Big Bang, then the condition described as darkness couldn't have existed then. However, I'm unaware of there being sufficient evidence available to justify any claim about what did or did not exist prior to the Big Bang. So, the claim that darkness existed before the universe began is conjecture.

*Note: This discussion is obviously off-topic from the OP. I don't recall if it was me who first departed away from the OP but apologize for my contribution.

In that case, darkness is the screen which the light is projected upon.

It is therefore the first thing to be mentioned re the creation story.

Light derives from sound, as the story goes. Darkness was already present. The light was what was created.

The Effect of Sound and The Universe [Thread Link]

The 'Heaven" and the "Earth" appear to be different 'places' which existed prior to the creation of light through sound...perhaps both place were necessary elementals, engaging with each other, prior to light being created?