There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

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Tcg
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There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

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We often hear the phrase, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Those who have been there know this isn't true:
A Young Warrior’s Last Thought is for Mother

In her book Year of the Comets, Jan Deblieu shares a conversation she had with her husband, Jeff, depressed as his mother lay dying of cancer:

’I heard somewhere,’ Jeff said, ‘that soldiers dying on the battlefield cry out for their mothers. People walking through the carnage at Normandy heard grown men calling out ‘Mommy!’ He shook his head. ‘Calling not for their girlfriends or wives, but for their mothers.’

Decades later, Normandy survivors attest to still hearing such cries. As emotional D-Day veteran Frank Devito noted in a 2014 interview with Tom Brokaw commemorating the 70th anniversary of the Normandy invasion, “You know there’s a fallacy people think that when a man is dying. They don’t ask for God. The last word they say before they die is ‘Momma.’”

https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... or-mother/
Why do some continue to claim that there are no atheists in foxholes when we know they cry for their Momma not for god?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

Post #2

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:27 pm .
We often hear the phrase, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Those who have been there know this isn't true:
A Young Warrior’s Last Thought is for Mother

In her book Year of the Comets, Jan Deblieu shares a conversation she had with her husband, Jeff, depressed as his mother lay dying of cancer:

’I heard somewhere,’ Jeff said, ‘that soldiers dying on the battlefield cry out for their mothers. People walking through the carnage at Normandy heard grown men calling out ‘Mommy!’ He shook his head. ‘Calling not for their girlfriends or wives, but for their mothers.’

Decades later, Normandy survivors attest to still hearing such cries. As emotional D-Day veteran Frank Devito noted in a 2014 interview with Tom Brokaw commemorating the 70th anniversary of the Normandy invasion, “You know there’s a fallacy people think that when a man is dying. They don’t ask for God. The last word they say before they die is ‘Momma.’”

https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... or-mother/
Why do some continue to claim that there are no atheists in foxholes when we know they cry for their Momma not for god?


Tcg
Yah, the old Christian claim about no atheists in fox holes is just another self-serving fabrication used to misrepresent atheism as a feeble, misguided position, used, I believe, not so much to put down atheism as to prop up one's own faith. And, as impracticable as it may be, crying out for mommy, an actual being, makes morer sense than crying out for god, an invention born of desperate need.



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Re: There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

I think there's some truth to it, regardless of whether it is always or even usually true. There are certainly at least some people who are atheists until death stares them in the face, at which point they reflexively "rethink" what they believe.

I don't think it's a genuine reappraisal of what is likely to be true, however, as soldiers calling out for their mothers (who certainly are not present nor able to help them) actually proves.

It just proves people are scared. People reach for comfort when scared. People also hurt others, even kill, when they're sufficiently terrified. People do and say crazy things when their lives are hanging by a thread.

People who certainly believed cannibalism was immoral have eaten other people to survive. It doesn't mean there are no atheists in foxholes. It doesn't really mean they were fair-weather atheists either. It just means that terrible things happen in foxholes, and terrible things affect what people say and do.

You certainly can go the route of saying that how people behave in crisis is their real, true self, but that's a very dark road, and I don't think it fairly represents a person anyway, to say that their logical self (this is about what they actually believe is true, right?) is fairly represented by what their terrified self says and does when the logic has been scared out of it.

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Re: There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

Post #4

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:42 pm
It just proves people are scared.
Yep. And people who are scared don't cry out to beings they lack belief in for help.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

On my last forum (Get used to it - I'm like uncle Albert derailing every conversation with .."When I woz in the Woer.." (1) I posted (in general chat) a piece about the Grosjean crash (q.v) and his remarkable, one might even say, astonishing, survival. And the reason I posted it was not only because the term 'miracle' was applied but because he could survive and tell us about it. As the whole shebang burst into flames, he tried to get out and realised that he was trapped. He thought of his wife and kids and made an effort by reasoning, really, that he could try a different way. And he got out with really minor burns thanks to safely technology that hadn't been there all that long and without which it would have been bye bye, Grosjean. At no time did God or praying enter his head.

So yes, it might be that under extreme threat of danger, one might try to do a deal with Jesus. But that's just one rather striking example of how that cannot be taken for granted and made the basis for a claim by the Bible -peddlers. In any case, even if it was true, that would only be why religion exists - as a motivator, inspirer and inal comfort in extremity. It would make it no more true than printing more Bibles than any other book makes that one true.
(1) "Fools and horses" (q.v) he was in the navy and his only notble action there was when he ran a ship aground.

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Re: There are no Orphans in Foxholes.

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]
Why do some continue to claim that there are no atheists in foxholes when we know they cry for their Momma not for god?

Because it perpetuates the 'need' for god.
It makes believers feel good and superior.
It's something that's said with little to no meaning behind it.
Those are the reasons that immediately came to mind, but there are likely others.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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