The Pine Barrens Tree Frog and the Flood.

[Tcg]

.
The Pine Barrens tree frog is well known in southern New Jersey and a few southeastern states.



This frog is tiny at about 1 - 1 1/2 inches long. If there were a global flood that killed all land animals except the few that were in Noah's ark, an ark that came aground in what is now called Turkey, how did this tiny frog find it's way to southern New Jersey?


Tcg

[1213]

I know you think that it is possible, but do you believe that is what actually happened?

I have not enough information to decide it yet.

The entire earth was covered with water to the tops of the highest mountains. Are you seriously suggesting that a little cave is going to escape that devastation?

Is there some good reason to think there could not have been relatively big caves?

Also, by how I have understood the flood happened, world was not exactly the same as now. By what the Bible tells, flood happened when the original single continent was broken and sunk. Right after that, modern ocean floors were probably on higher level, because they had not been compressed as much as nowadays. In long time water on top of them has compressed the stuff that sunk, which result is that mountains appear to be rising and water level decreasing.

There was an ice age after the flood? The biblical flood allegedly occurred about 6000 years ago so please tell us exactly when the ice age occurred and how long it lasted.

If there was really 40 days of rain and most living beings dead, as the Bible tells, it would have cooled the planet, which would have caused ice age. I think there is not enough reason to claim it was 6000 years ago, but I think it is possible. How humans have populated new areas indicates to me how long it lasted. All signs of civilizations after the flood are younger than 6000 years, by what I know.

Please explain how one pair of frogs somehow populated all regions of the planet except for Antarctica. There is something significant in that last bit that makes your ice-hopping-frog scenario quite untenable. The same can be applied to most other animals emerging from the ark.

I believe it is possible that there were all land animal families. Tree frogs is one family of frogs (Hylidae). There are 55 frog families and therefore it is possible there were more than one pair. Wikipedia says about Hylidae frogs:

Species of the genus Cyclorana are burrowing frogs that spend much of their lives underground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylidae

Because of that, maybe they could have survived underground in the flood. And the underground theory fits nicely this legend:

"...Therefore it was decided to destroy the world, and the good Hopi (the chosen people) again waited for the end of the Earth safely underground with the Ant-people. By order of Sotuknang, at the end of the Second World, Earth’s axis was no longer spiritually maintained and it went out of control. It began to rotate at a breakneck pace, it swung and turned over twice and then it left its orbit around the sun. As a result, the mountains and the sea got mixed up and replaced each other. Then everything turned very cold (Snowball Earth) and a period of global glaciation occurred...."
http://earthbeforeflood.com/four_world_ ... _hopi.html

I don't claim that is true, but, it fits nicely to what Bible tells. Bible flood story also indicates of "mountains and sea got mixed" and after that everything turned really cold. But, I don't think this means there were ice hopping frogs, all though I can't say it could not be possible.

How did they determine what was the right area? Remember, we have one pair emerging from the ark and they have to start reproducing in a very hostile environment and their offspring have to begin migrating. In order to populate most regions on the planet they will have to find suitable habitats all along the way in every direction. Big order.

I think the more specific area need is the result of later adjustment and it may be that they could survive also in different areas, if absolutely necessary. Hylidae frogs can be found almost everywhere. One possibility could be also that they traveled with people from Australia to America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylidae#/ ... istrib.PNG

There are about 4700 different species of frogs. People may look different to each other as you say, but there is only one species of modern humans.

There is 55 frog (Anura) families. I think it could be that all of them were in the ark. All though, it may be that many if not all of them survived in other ways, because they are also water animals and can survive in water. Frogs have these amazing survival skills which is why it would not be a wonder, if they would have survived outside the ark:

Torpor
During extreme conditions, some frogs enter a state of torpor and remain inactive for months. In colder regions, many species of frog hibernate in winter. Those that live on land such as the American toad (Bufo americanus) dig a burrow and make a hibernaculum in which to lie dormant. Others, less proficient at digging, find a crevice or bury themselves in dead leaves. Aquatic species such as the American bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana) normally sink to the bottom of the pond where they lie, semi-immersed in mud but still able to access the oxygen dissolved in the water. Their metabolism slows down and they live on their energy reserves...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frog

[1213]

...
Are you suggesting there were only two frogs on the ark?

Please check the answer I gave to brunumb.

[Tcg]

I think the more specific area need is the result of later adjustment and it may be that they could survive also in different areas, if absolutely necessary. Hylidae frogs can be found almost everywhere. One possibility could be also that they traveled with people from Australia to America.

How would these frogs have gotten from Mt. Ararat to Australia?


Tcg

[brunumb]

I know you think that it is possible, but do you believe that is what actually happened?

I have not enough information to decide it yet.

And yet the rest of your post is based on limited or no information at all. Hmmm.

The entire earth was covered with water to the tops of the highest mountains. Are you seriously suggesting that a little cave is going to escape that devastation?

Is there some good reason to think there could not have been relatively big caves?

Also, by how I have understood the flood happened, world was not exactly the same as now. By what the Bible tells, flood happened when the original single continent was broken and sunk. Right after that, modern ocean floors were probably on higher level, because they had not been compressed as much as nowadays. In long time water on top of them has compressed the stuff that sunk, which result is that mountains appear to be rising and water level decreasing.

The size of the cave has nothing to do with it when you consider the devastating nature of the flood. In your scenario we have a rain deluge accompanied by fountains of the deep bursting forth, continents floating around and collapsing. Whoa! NOTHING could survive all that! The energy involved would actually heat everything up to phenomenal temperatures. Consequent ice age? Truly laughable.

There was an ice age after the flood? The biblical flood allegedly occurred about 6000 years ago so please tell us exactly when the ice age occurred and how long it lasted.

If there was really 40 days of rain and most living beings dead, as the Bible tells, it would have cooled the planet, which would have caused ice age. I think there is not enough reason to claim it was 6000 years ago, but I think it is possible. How humans have populated new areas indicates to me how long it lasted. All signs of civilizations after the flood are younger than 6000 years, by what I know.

More nonsense. Please look up and learn a little about ice ages. That said, there is no way the earth cooled to form an ice age after your flood scenario and then quickly warmed up again for life to continue as usual. Your last sentence basically says that all signs of civilisation after 6000 years ago (alleged flood) are younger than 6000 years. Too funny.

Please explain how one pair of frogs somehow populated all regions of the planet except for Antarctica. There is something significant in that last bit that makes your ice-hopping-frog scenario quite untenable. The same can be applied to most other animals emerging from the ark.

I believe it is possible that there were all land animal families. Tree frogs is one family of frogs (Hylidae). There are 55 frog families and therefore it is possible there were more than one pair. Wikipedia says about Hylidae frogs:

Species of the genus Cyclorana are burrowing frogs that spend much of their lives underground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylidae

Because of that, maybe they could have survived underground in the flood. And the underground theory fits nicely this legend:

"...Therefore it was decided to destroy the world, and the good Hopi (the chosen people) again waited for the end of the Earth safely underground with the Ant-people. By order of Sotuknang, at the end of the Second World, Earth’s axis was no longer spiritually maintained and it went out of control. It began to rotate at a breakneck pace, it swung and turned over twice and then it left its orbit around the sun. As a result, the mountains and the sea got mixed up and replaced each other. Then everything turned very cold (Snowball Earth) and a period of global glaciation occurred...."
http://earthbeforeflood.com/four_world_ ... _hopi.html

I don't claim that is true, but, it fits nicely to what Bible tells. Bible flood story also indicates of "mountains and sea got mixed" and after that everything turned really cold. But, I don't think this means there were ice hopping frogs, all though I can't say it could not be possible.

So you are going to use another mythology to try and prop up your mythology. Something based on facts and evidence would be more appropriate.

All of a sudden we are going from one pair of frogs on the ark to more than one pair. Biblical contradiction? Also, no frogs that did not board the ark should have survived. That would be another biblical contradiction. You are clearly flailing around trying desperately to shore up your sinking myth.

How did they determine what was the right area? Remember, we have one pair emerging from the ark and they have to start reproducing in a very hostile environment and their offspring have to begin migrating. In order to populate most regions on the planet they will have to find suitable habitats all along the way in every direction. Big order.

I think the more specific area need is the result of later adjustment and it may be that they could survive also in different areas, if absolutely necessary. Hylidae frogs can be found almost everywhere. One possibility could be also that they traveled with people from Australia to America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylidae#/ ... istrib.PNG

When did people first travel from Australia to America? A little knowledge of history would blast that theory out of the water. It is amazing how many plants and animals require very specific habitats and conditions to survive and propagate. After the flood the earth would have been a devastated mess requiring centuries if not more to regenerate. Survival of the ark's occupants once they disembarked would essentially be impossible.

There are about 4700 different species of frogs. People may look different to each other as you say, but there is only one species of modern humans.

There is 55 frog (Anura) families. I think it could be that all of them were in the ark. All though, it may be that many if not all of them survived in other ways, because they are also water animals and can survive in water. Frogs have these amazing survival skills which is why it would not be a wonder, if they would have survived outside the ark:

Torpor
During extreme conditions, some frogs enter a state of torpor and remain inactive for months. In colder regions, many species of frog hibernate in winter. Those that live on land such as the American toad (Bufo americanus) dig a burrow and make a hibernaculum in which to lie dormant. Others, less proficient at digging, find a crevice or bury themselves in dead leaves. Aquatic species such as the American bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana) normally sink to the bottom of the pond where they lie, semi-immersed in mud but still able to access the oxygen dissolved in the water. Their metabolism slows down and they live on their energy reserves...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frog

That all fits very well with the evolution of life on this planet but is totally irrelevant when considering the great flood scenario. I notice your glaring mistake regarding the number of human species has been disregarded. Perhaps it uncomfortably highlights too many other misunderstandings that might also be informing your imaginative solutions to the endless problems associated with the biblical flood.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to 1213 in post #31]

I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion. - David Hume

[JehovahsWitness]

If not, how does it address the question for debate:

If there were a global flood that killed all land animals except the few that were in Noah's ark, an ark that came aground in what is now called Turkey, how did this tiny frog find it's way to southern New Jersey?

Tcg

I do not see any mention of when in the OP. You asked how did this tiny frog find its way [from turkey to America ]; you did not ask when. A "how" question would address the method (ie the route and means) a "when" question would involve the timing of said method.

To illustrate

QUESTION : How did you get from Antartica to Australia?
ANSWER: I swam.

QUESTION : When did this happen?
ANSWER: Three clock this morning

I have addressed the question asked, which was a "how" question. And yet no thank you.


Regarding your follow up question (ie another different question no asked in the OP) which is when I think all this happened, would you like me to share my faith based beliefs on the subject based on the bible because that is all I have on this specific point?



JW

[Difflugia]

I do not see any mention of when in the OP. You asked how did this tiny frog find its way [from turkey to America ]; you did not ask when. A "how" question would address the method (ie the route and means) a "when" question would involve the timing of said method.

No, but the OP does specify that an answer must be consistent with the story of Noah's Ark. You seem hell-bent on ignoring that and I'm utterly baffled as to why.

To illustrate

QUESTION : How did you get from Antartica to Australia?
ANSWER: I swam.

QUESTION : When did this happen?
ANSWER: Three clock this morning

I have addressed the question asked, which was a "how" question. And yet no thank you.

Once again, your illustration is lacking. Here's one that fits the situation:

QUESTION: Without entering the water, how could you get from Antarctica to Australia?
ANSWER: I could swim.

[Tcg]

I have addressed the question asked, which was a "how" question. And yet no thank you.

This previously asked follow up clears the issue quite nicely I believe. Notice the word I added bolding to for clarification:

"Are you suggesting all this took place after the flood which reportedly happened about 6,000 years ago?"

viewtopic.php?p=1054895#p1054895


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

[
"Are you suggesting all this took place after the flood which reportedly happened about 6,000 years ago?"

viewtopic.php?p=1054895#p1054895


Tcg

Would you like to hear my faith based beliefs on the question of timing, as that is all I have to offer.


Yes or No?

[Tcg]

"Are you suggesting all this took place after the flood which reportedly happened about 6,000 years ago?"

viewtopic.php?p=1054895#p1054895


Tcg

Would you like to hear my faith based beliefs on the question of timing, as that is all I have to offer.

The question above asks you to clarify the intent of one of your previous posts. I see no reason why you'd need faith to remember what your intent was.


Tcg