What is it?
How do you do it?
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
Why is it unforgivable (based on the bible)?
Can you do it without knowing?
What other 'need to know' bits about unforgivable sin can you offer that needs debated?
Unforgivable sin
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #11Difflugia wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:00 pmBased on the text, I think you're reading too much into even that and according to Mark, it's all too easy. In a bit that's omitted by Matthew and Luke, Mark tells us what "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" means in verse 3:30 (emphasis mine):1213 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:19 pmThanks, I was just going to show that also. I don't think it can be done unknowingly. And if person does so, I don't think he would even want to have forgiveness.Miles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm According to the book of Matthew its
Matthew 12:31-32...
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.According to Mark, attributing the miracles of Jesus to an evil spirit rather than the Holy Spirit is blasphemy (speaking evil) against the Holy Spirit.“Most certainly I tell you, all sins of the descendants of man will be forgiven, including their blasphemies with which they may blaspheme; but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.”—because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Whatever god had in mind when he had "Matthew" jot down those words, so be it; however, within such qualified concepts of "blasphemy against" and "speaketh against" still resides the fact that they shall not be forgiven.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #12[Replying to Miles in post #10]
"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more....(v. 20)
If the one unrighteous man [Adam] brought upon humankind any sin which the righteous man [Christ] couldn't remove, that would make Adam greater than Christ. And any unforgivable sin would flip v. 20 on its head, making sin abound more than grace.
Which rules?Hey! It's his game so he gets to make the rules.
"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more....(v. 20)
If the one unrighteous man [Adam] brought upon humankind any sin which the righteous man [Christ] couldn't remove, that would make Adam greater than Christ. And any unforgivable sin would flip v. 20 on its head, making sin abound more than grace.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #13Well, of course:Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:01 pm [Replying to Miles in post #10]Which rules?Hey! It's his game so he gets to make the rules.
Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
But as you say, then there's this.
"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more....(v. 20)
If the one unrighteous man [Adam] brought upon humankind any sin which the righteous man [Christ] couldn't remove, that would make Adam greater than Christ. And any unforgivable sin would flip v. 20 on its head, making sin abound more than grace.
'Tis a puzzlement. Seems the old guy can't make up his mind or else his word isn't worth bupkis.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #14I see no reason to believe either is lying.Miles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm
Matthew 12:31-32[...]
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
John 6:40
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Obviously someone's lying here; either Matthew or John.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #15Lying is beside the point. A person may believe that he is speaking the truth, but he is wrong.
However, there seem to be a couple of good point here. Aside from the quote from Romans which I can't seem to be relevant. Sure, Adam caused man to be sinful from birth and the law was imposed to regulate the unruly, though it just tended to make more chance of sinning by having rules to break ( decriminalisation has always been a great relief, but Authorities hate to do it). That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 'unforgivable' slagging off the Holy Spirit. I see a difference between presenting an argument questioning this or that claim about it and abuse aimed at it. But Blasphemy could equally cover both.
But it's a good point that a man can't be held accountable for abuse that a demon spoke through him, or at least if God has a moral code anything like the one He gave us.
However, there seem to be a couple of good point here. Aside from the quote from Romans which I can't seem to be relevant. Sure, Adam caused man to be sinful from birth and the law was imposed to regulate the unruly, though it just tended to make more chance of sinning by having rules to break ( decriminalisation has always been a great relief, but Authorities hate to do it). That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 'unforgivable' slagging off the Holy Spirit. I see a difference between presenting an argument questioning this or that claim about it and abuse aimed at it. But Blasphemy could equally cover both.
But it's a good point that a man can't be held accountable for abuse that a demon spoke through him, or at least if God has a moral code anything like the one He gave us.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #16Yeah , that was a bit out of line.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:28 amI see no reason to believe either is lying.Miles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm
Matthew 12:31-32[...]
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
John 6:40
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Obviously someone's lying here; either Matthew or John.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #17Humans trying to give their subjective interpretation of morality an extra +1 god boost.
Leave the seat down.How do you do it?
I don't know, this is really the pretty thing's area of expertise.Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
Beats me, I always look where I'm fixing to sit.Why is it unforgivable (based on the bible)?
Yeah, the mind wanders.Can you do it without knowing?
If any of that bunch that claims they exist, can actually show they do.What other 'need to know' bits about unforgivable sin can you offer that needs debated?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #18You also believe a dead guy magically hopped after being dead the past three days, so we really can't hold a lot of stock on what you believe in this particular case.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #19Not necessary, because it can be that God just don't want to forgive all sins.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:33 pm Any sin being unforgivable is theologically untenable, as it would essentially make sin more powerful than God.
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Re: Unforgivable sin
Post #20[Replying to Miles in post #4]
How do you do it?
Blaspheme or speak against the Holy Ghost.
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
Is this an example of "speaking against the Holy Ghost" or simply connecting the dots re the storyline?The Holy Ghost is extremely thin-skinned and highly vindictive. Not a nice combination at all.