Unforgivable sin

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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Unforgivable sin

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

What is it?
How do you do it?
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
Why is it unforgivable (based on the bible)?
Can you do it without knowing?

What other 'need to know' bits about unforgivable sin can you offer that needs debated?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Miles
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #11

Post by Miles »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:00 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:19 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm According to the book of Matthew its

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
...
Thanks, I was just going to show that also. I don't think it can be done unknowingly. And if person does so, I don't think he would even want to have forgiveness.
Based on the text, I think you're reading too much into even that and according to Mark, it's all too easy. In a bit that's omitted by Matthew and Luke, Mark tells us what "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" means in verse 3:30 (emphasis mine):
“Most certainly I tell you, all sins of the descendants of man will be forgiven, including their blasphemies with which they may blaspheme; but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.”—because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
According to Mark, attributing the miracles of Jesus to an evil spirit rather than the Holy Spirit is blasphemy (speaking evil) against the Holy Spirit.

Whatever god had in mind when he had "Matthew" jot down those words, so be it; however, within such qualified concepts of "blasphemy against" and "speaketh against" still resides the fact that they shall not be forgiven.


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Athetotheist
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #12

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Miles in post #10]
Hey! It's his game so he gets to make the rules.
Which rules?

"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)

"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more....(v. 20)

If the one unrighteous man [Adam] brought upon humankind any sin which the righteous man [Christ] couldn't remove, that would make Adam greater than Christ. And any unforgivable sin would flip v. 20 on its head, making sin abound more than grace.

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Miles
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:01 pm [Replying to Miles in post #10]
Hey! It's his game so he gets to make the rules.
Which rules?
Well, of course:

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


But as you say, then there's this.

"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)

"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more....(v. 20)

If the one unrighteous man [Adam] brought upon humankind any sin which the righteous man [Christ] couldn't remove, that would make Adam greater than Christ. And any unforgivable sin would flip v. 20 on its head, making sin abound more than grace.

'Tis a puzzlement. Seems the old guy can't make up his mind or else his word isn't worth bupkis.




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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm
Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
[...]
John 6:40
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

Obviously someone's lying here; either Matthew or John.
I see no reason to believe either is lying.


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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #15

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Lying is beside the point. A person may believe that he is speaking the truth, but he is wrong.

However, there seem to be a couple of good point here. Aside from the quote from Romans which I can't seem to be relevant. Sure, Adam caused man to be sinful from birth and the law was imposed to regulate the unruly, though it just tended to make more chance of sinning by having rules to break ( decriminalisation has always been a great relief, but Authorities hate to do it). That doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 'unforgivable' slagging off the Holy Spirit. I see a difference between presenting an argument questioning this or that claim about it and abuse aimed at it. But Blasphemy could equally cover both.

But it's a good point that a man can't be held accountable for abuse that a demon spoke through him, or at least if God has a moral code anything like the one He gave us.

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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #16

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:28 am
Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:15 pm
Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
[...]
John 6:40
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

Obviously someone's lying here; either Matthew or John.
I see no reason to believe either is lying.
Yeah , that was a bit out of line.


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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #17

Post by JoeyKnothead »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:56 pm Unforgivable sin

What is it?
Humans trying to give their subjective interpretation of morality an extra +1 god boost.
How do you do it?
Leave the seat down.
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
I don't know, this is really the pretty thing's area of expertise.
Why is it unforgivable (based on the bible)?
Beats me, I always look where I'm fixing to sit.
Can you do it without knowing?
Yeah, the mind wanders.
What other 'need to know' bits about unforgivable sin can you offer that needs debated?
If any of that bunch that claims they exist, can actually show they do.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #18

Post by JoeyKnothead »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:28 am I see no reason to believe either is lying.
You also believe a dead guy magically hopped after being dead the past three days, so we really can't hold a lot of stock on what you believe in this particular case.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #19

Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:33 pm Any sin being unforgivable is theologically untenable, as it would essentially make sin more powerful than God.
Not necessary, because it can be that God just don't want to forgive all sins.

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William
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Re: Unforgivable sin

Post #20

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #4]
How do you do it?
Blaspheme or speak against the Holy Ghost.
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
The Holy Ghost is extremely thin-skinned and highly vindictive. Not a nice combination at all.
Is this an example of "speaking against the Holy Ghost" or simply connecting the dots re the storyline?

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