Unforgivable sin

[nobspeople]

What is it?
How do you do it?
Why is it unforgivable (in your opinion)?
Why is it unforgivable (based on the bible)?
Can you do it without knowing?

What other 'need to know' bits about unforgivable sin can you offer that needs debated?

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #35]

It really doesn't matter what constitutes any particular sin. The point is that if there's any sin a savior isn't made into (2 Corinthians 5:21), if any record of debt isn't nailed to a savior's cross (Colossians 2:14), if there's any sin over which a savior's grace doesn't abound (Romans 5:20), then a savior hasn't done the whole job, and the sinner is still living under the curse of a law.

No one has been "saved", and everybody will die for their own iniquities (Jeremiah 31:30). As stated in Joel 2:31-32, the best one can do is "survive" the "day of the LORD", which is best described in Matthew 24 as the "great tribulation", which "immediately after" comes the "son of man". The time of the "great tribulation" will have to be "cut short" in order for anyone to survive (Matthew 24:22). According to what is written in Matthew 24:13, only those who "endures to the end" will survive (be saved). As for any "records", those will be recorded in the "book of life", which will contain the deeds everyone is to be judged from. As for 2 Corinthians 5:21-6:2, taken from Isaiah 49:8, it refers to Israel/Jacob, who will be "restored" (Joel 3:1) & (Isaiah 49:8-23) whereas the "nations"/Gentiles will become Jacob's servants (Isaiah 14:1-2).

"....just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28)

You quote the Christian gospels, but you don't seem to believe that verse. What do you think Jesus means there?

Matthew wasn't a "Christian", and his gospel was of the "kingdom", per the instructions of Yeshua (Matthew 10:5). As for the coming of the "son of man", per Matthew 24:29-31, that hasn't happened as of yet. And your sins have not been forgiven, or you could throw away your doctor's number. And what does "many" even mean. It is the "many" which are on the path to "destruction", it is the "few" who enter into "life" (Matthew 7:13). And "ransom" apparently doesn't mean saving the "many" on the path to destruction, for most have already died in their sins, and have never reached the "day of the LORD", when many have and will die (Revelation 6:8), and many more will hide under the rocks to hide from the "wrath of the Lamb". I think you are reaching past the limits of credulity, under the illusions presented by the flimflammer, the false prophet Paul, who quotes from Scriptures with no relevance to the points he makes. He is just a cheap name dropper, getting by on the reputations of others. And certainly the "fat shepherds" should not lord over the sheep, or their destruction will be forthcoming (Ezekiel 34:16).

[otseng]

I think you are reaching past the limits of credulity

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[TRANSPONDER]

Well argued, but that has nothing to do with the unforgivable sin of Blasphemy. The point there (and on the topic) is not someone else (or society) forgiving a person (forgiving himself is a dubious standard indeed) but whether Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (whatever that actually is - examples are not given) is something that God will not or cannot forgive, even if the rest of humanity forgives the perpetrator.

My argument is that if the individual can forgive 'whatever BAHG is' then it cannot be called 'unforgivable.'

Is there any more information re the one who does the judging, as to what the criteria for being guilty of an unforgivable thing is?

The OP appears to at least suggest that there is more that is unknown about the subject than there is that is known about it.
"something that God will not or cannot forgive,"? Is there information you have about this which promoted you to write that?

You're toying with semantics. You must understand what Jesus is shown as saying in Matthew 12. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now some smart Alec might have stepped forward and said 'Well I'm willing to forgive them, so you are wrong in saying it won't be forgiven."

"Ho Ho ." says Jesus with a slow handclap. "Funny man. Ok smarty pants, I'll make that 'will not be forgiven by God.' You are seriously trying to tell me you didn't understand that?"

Now I don't know whether this semantic squiggle of yours is intended to make a theological point or is intended to prove the Bible wrong, but no serious apologist on either theist or atheist side would try to pull one like that.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #43]

The OP appears to at least suggest that there is more that is unknown about the subject than there is that is known about it.
"something that God will not or cannot forgive,"? Is there information you have about this which promoted you to write that?

You must understand what Jesus is shown as saying in Matthew 12. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Yes - but I am interested in what BJ did not say re this example. How can we explore what BAHG is if we are not told what it is?

Are there any examples which can be put forth, which may stimulate debate?

Now some smart Alec might have stepped forward and said 'Well I'm willing to forgive them, so you are wrong in saying it won't be forgiven."

"Ho Ho ." says Jesus with a slow handclap. "Funny man. Ok smarty pants, I'll make that 'will not be forgiven by God.' You are seriously trying to tell me you didn't understand that?"

If I were that smart Alec, I would answer truthfully that I did understand that, but still am no closer to understand what BAHG is. Are we expected to get that information when this god tells us exactly why he won't forgive me?

Now I don't know whether this semantic squiggle of yours is intended to make a theological point or is intended to prove the Bible wrong, but no serious apologist on either theist or atheist side would try to pull one like that.

Well then I would ask the smarty pants what information he has that tells me what BAHG is before I accepted that I am just pulling some kind of semantics stunt.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #40]

Is there any more information re the one who does the judging, as to what the criteria for being guilty of an unforgivable thing is?

"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges." (Matthew 12:26-27)

But what if they follow the principle of not judging, that they themselves not be judged?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #43]

The OP appears to at least suggest that there is more that is unknown about the subject than there is that is known about it.
"something that God will not or cannot forgive,"? Is there information you have about this which promoted you to write that?

You must understand what Jesus is shown as saying in Matthew 12. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Yes - but I am interested in what BJ did not say re this example. How can we explore what BAHG is if we are not told what it is?

Are there any examples which can be put forth, which may stimulate debate?

Now some smart Alec might have stepped forward and said 'Well I'm willing to forgive them, so you are wrong in saying it won't be forgiven."

"Ho Ho ." says Jesus with a slow handclap. "Funny man. Ok smarty pants, I'll make that 'will not be forgiven by God.' You are seriously trying to tell me you didn't understand that?"

If I were that smart Alec, I would answer truthfully that I did understand that, but still am no closer to understand what BAHG is. Are we expected to get that information when this god tells us exactly why he won't forgive me?

Now I don't know whether this semantic squiggle of yours is intended to make a theological point or is intended to prove the Bible wrong, but no serious apologist on either theist or atheist side would try to pull one like that.

Well then I would ask the smarty pants what information he has that tells me what BAHG is before I accepted that I am just pulling some kind of semantics stunt.

Now that I get. That you or I or smarty -pants might be willing to forgive a blasphemy against the Holy spirit or any other crime is irrelevant, but - accepted first that badmouthing the Holy spirit is NOT forgivable, at least by the one person who has the last word on it - it is a perfectly reasonable question..

"Just what sort of thing would be considered blaspheming the Holy Spirit?"

"Well, I can't tell you, can I, or I'd be doing it."

[William]

[Replying to William in post #40]

Is there any more information re the one who does the judging, as to what the criteria for being guilty of an unforgivable thing is?

"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges." (Matthew 12:26-27)

But what if they follow the principle of not judging, that they themselves not be judged?

Then who is doing the judging...?

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #46]

Well then I would ask the smarty pants what information he has that tells me what BAHG is before I accepted that I am just pulling some kind of semantics stunt.

"Just what sort of thing would be considered blaspheming the Holy Spirit?"

"Well, I can't tell you, can I, or I'd be doing it."

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

I am not sure that it can easily be linked in context to the other words surrounding it.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

How are those things connected?

MArk:
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke:
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”

Nothing from John?

Do any of these point to what is meant by BAHG?

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to William in post #40]

Is there any more information re the one who does the judging, as to what the criteria for being guilty of an unforgivable thing is?

"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges." (Matthew 12:26-27)

But what if they follow the principle of not judging, that they themselves not be judged?

Then who is doing the judging...?

The one who does the judging is the LORD my God (Ezekiel 34:15-23), and judgment day (Joel 2:31-3:2), the day of the LORD, such as the "great tribulation" is at the door (Matthew 24:29-33). He will use his angels (Matthew 13:39-50), and the son of man (The Word of God) made flesh (Revelation 19:13-21), to make them drink from the cup of His anger (Revelation 14:10). As for the devils, demons and their false prophet judging, they teach that those that do not believe in their false gospel of grace, will be cast into the fires of hell (lake of fire). As you judge others, so you shall be judged. One should be careful how they judge others, for that is how they will be judged, but the ultimate judge, will be the LORD God, and it would not be healthy to have the mark of the beast (the Roman emperor Constantine), or his false prophet Paul, the foundation of his church of many gods (Trinity of gods). The sky is getting ready to fall, and the earth shake the many will be looking for rocks to hide under. (Isaiah 26:20 & Revelation 6:12-17 & Revelation 16:16-21).

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #41]

And what does "many" even mean. It is the "many" which are on the path to "destruction", it is the "few" who enter into "life" (Matthew 7:13). And "ransom" apparently doesn't mean saving the "many" on the path to destruction, for most have already died in their sins, and have never reached the "day of the LORD", when many have and will die (Revelation 6:8), and many more will hide under the rocks to hide from the "wrath of the Lamb".

Well, since it was Jesus using the terms "many" and "ransom", what do those terms mean?