Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

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Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

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Post by POI »

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #81

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:34 pm Peace to you
POI wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:40 am
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:44 am Peace to you,
POI wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:20 am
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:50 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:09 pm Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).
This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.
At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.
I think it's a little more than that :) On the one hand, you state that you would have a very deep connection to your closest loved ones. But then, on the other hand, you seem to somehow down-play how much you would mourn their destruction by God?
Would you mourn if you serial killer (adult) child was imprisoned for life (or given the death penalty) so as to keep them from harming and murdering other people? Would you not be sad that your (adult) child did these things, and because of that, they are not going to be with you, that they are going to miss out on the blessings that they could have had? Would you blame the judge for the sentence, or would you accept it as being something necessary to protect others?
Haha... You seem to think you know how God judges morals?


Why didn't you answer the questions - specifically the final question?
Let's think-tank this for a moment... Where does murder rank upon the 10 Commandments? Which ones are listed above murder? Oh, that's right... "Worshiping other gods before Him", "dishonoring your parents", and "not keeping the Sabbath" are apparently deemed higher on that list; verses murder.
I don't know why you're on the topic of sin or even of ranking sin. You were asking about blaming or resenting the Judge (God), but in the scenario that I presented, would you blame any judge for doing what needed to be done to protect innocents?

tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:44 am
Further, you seem not to provide any protest to the Bible's notion that more than 50% will not make the cut. Hence, it's highly probable some of your closest loved ones won't make it.
I thought you didn't want to argue 'interpretations'?
And yet, you have given me no shortage of 'translations.' Not sure why you are shying away now?


Because I already responded to this, re: saving entire households (which you have ignored) as well as people of the nations who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (and so will be declared righteous), and the sheep who are non-Christian, but who are also invited into the Kingdom, even called blessed.

The whole 'more than 50% won't make the cut' is on you to support. Not that a percentage has any bearing on WHO 'makes the cut' anyway.

Do you acknowledge that "narrow is the path to Heaven", according to the Bible?


I've never seen that statement.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Narrow is the way (and gate) that leads to LIFE, and few find it. And that is true. Because Christ is the Gate, and the Way, and we must enter through Him in order to enter into life (which Christ is also the LIFE). But this is speaking about those who come to and are in Christ, of which there are few.

But there are others - many others - who enter into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom (while Christians reign as king-priests with Christ for a thousand years, in the Kingdom). These other ones are also blessed, these other ones also receive the gift of eternal life. This is due the great mercy and love of God and of His Son - the kind of love that begets love.


Peace again.
Those that reign with "Christ" are those who are without the "mark of the beast" "who came to life" (Revelation 20:4), after the last saint to rule with Christ was killed (Revelation 6:10-11). The "mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb" would be the keeping of the decrees of the Roman emperor Constantine, and one of those horns like a lamb (Christ like leaders), the false prophet Paul (Revelation 13), which is the opposite of having the mark of God (Deuteronomy 6:8) which is teaching the 10 Commandments (Deuteronomy 6:8). That would not be the "Christians", who follow the Trinity dogma, and keep the day of the sun god, Sol Invictus, as their Sabbath, which are the doctrines supported and enacted by the Roman emperor Constantine, the 7th head of the beast of Revelation 17:11. The "way" made flesh, would be the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13), the "Law and the prophets", the "tested stone" based on on "justice" and "righteousness" (Isaiah 28:16-17). On the other hand, the "many" would be those who follow the wide path to destruction, in as they follow the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:13-23), of whom the Pharisee of Pharisees, Paul, is the "foremost" sinner of them all, whose message is of hypocrisy and double mindedness, better expressed in Isaiah 28:15, as a new "covenant with death", whereas they think they shall not sleep/die, the same message given by the serpent (Genesis 3:4), which shall be "cancelled" (Isaiah 28:17). The nations/Gentiles/Christians who enter into the kingdom, will first have to confess that their "fathers" taught "lies"/"falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19), and they could then choose to be servants of Jacob (Isaiah 14:1-2).

Revelation 6:…10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #82

Post by otseng »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:48 pm You apparently seem to think you are wise and educated, but it is those who think they are wise and education, who are apparently found without understanding (Matthew 11:25), which you apparently admit. Maybe you should read Daniel 12:10 to find out why you are in the dark. Or if you like the dark, you can always choose to remain in that state of being. As of today, the U.S. is still a free country, at least to a point. You can choose the truth, or choose to retain your level of indoctrination, and be a slave to this world and its leader.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #83

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I have two responses to the OP..

1. I have a friend of whom I occasionally have theological discussions with. He once gave me an illustration of what heaven will be like. He said that he received this illustration from somewhere, although I can't remember where.

Perhaps he got it from his LDS background..but anyway, the illustration goes a little something like this..(paraphrasing).

A guy had died, went to heaven, and was resurrected back to life.

His friends and family wanted him to share his experiences in heaven..and he pretty much told them..

"It is best that none of you ever experience HEAVEN before your due time".

Why? (They asked).

His response; Because Heaven is so great, so magnificent, that you would want to kill yourself in order to go back there.

Again, I am paraphrasing, but that is what I believe to be an accurate depiction of what Heaven is/will be like.

----------------------------------

2. My second point is; Dr. Craig (William Lane Craig) once stated that heaven will be so magnificent that we just simply won't be thinking about our loved ones who didn't make it.

He gave an illustration, that if we can imagine being in excruciating pain...are we thinking about the multiples of 2 while we are in pain, even though we know the multiples of 2? No, because our minds are focused on the pain.

If you are making love to your beautiful wife on your honeymoon, are you thinking about the square root of 25? No, you aren't.

Dr. Craig's point is; our minds will be focused on Heaven and being in the presence of God, that we simply won't be consumed with other thoughts.

Either that, or just realize that your loved ones didn't accept Christ and does not deserve to reap the benefits that those who did will receive.

That alone does it for me.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #84

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:34 pm Peace to you
POI wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:40 am
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:44 am Peace to you,
POI wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:20 am
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:50 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:09 pm Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).
This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.
At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.
I think it's a little more than that :) On the one hand, you state that you would have a very deep connection to your closest loved ones. But then, on the other hand, you seem to somehow down-play how much you would mourn their destruction by God?
Would you mourn if you serial killer (adult) child was imprisoned for life (or given the death penalty) so as to keep them from harming and murdering other people? Would you not be sad that your (adult) child did these things, and because of that, they are not going to be with you, that they are going to miss out on the blessings that they could have had? Would you blame the judge for the sentence, or would you accept it as being something necessary to protect others?
Haha... You seem to think you know how God judges morals?


Why didn't you answer the questions - specifically the final question?
I thought I had made my case here clear, maybe not? I'll try a different approach.

The question(s) you raise begs the topic of 'sin'. Meaning, I'm then compelled to decipher whether or not sin would be allowed in Heaven, like it is on earth.?.?.?.?

If 'sin' IS allowed in Heaven, then why call it "Heaven"? Further, if sin is allowed in Heaven, can you murder someone in Heaven? I doubt it. Hence, no need for containment.

If 'sin' is not allowed in Heaven, then ALL can go to Heaven, since ALL will sin; all the way up to the time you die ----> (including you) ;)

Your analogy deals with 'worldly problems'. On earth, humans deem it 'moral' to contain or exterminate the harmful. Hence, the reason we lock up 'criminals' for murder, theft, trespassing, rape, etc etc etc... Also, in your analogy, a murderer may still go to Heaven anyways; as we do not know how God judged anyone?

If you are merely asking me how I would feel if one of my closest loved ones was contained or exterminated for committing murder, I could answer. But I do not see your questions as relevant to this post :) In the topic I raised, God is both the (rule maker), as well as the (rule enforcer). Here on earth, that only looks to apply to dictatorships, which I doubt you support?
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:34 pm
Let's think-tank this for a moment... Where does murder rank upon the 10 Commandments? Which ones are listed above murder? Oh, that's right... "Worshiping other gods before Him", "dishonoring your parents", and "not keeping the Sabbath" are apparently deemed higher on that list; verses murder.
I don't know why you're on the topic of sin or even of ranking sin. You were asking about blaming or resenting the Judge (God), but in the scenario that I presented, would you blame any judge for doing what needed to be done to protect innocents?
I raised the topic of 'sin' because God deems all humans sinners, regardless of how much you repent. This is why Christians preach grace and partially why Jesus had to be sacrificed. Taking emotion out of the equation, I would not blame the judge IF (s)he was following the rules of the county/state/other. If the judge did not, we could appeal. Human judges are not deemed 'perfect'. But God apparently is???? However, we do not clearly KNOW the rules, and to what criteria for which God will judge your eternal fate?.?.?.?

However, we do know that God deems us all law breakers. On earth, if authority had the means to place all in jail, all would likely be in jail; especially if LYING was an offense. In the case for the Bible, it is a top offense ;)

I could go on and on, but I hope you get the gist?
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:34 pm
tam wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:44 am
Further, you seem not to provide any protest to the Bible's notion that more than 50% will not make the cut. Hence, it's highly probable some of your closest loved ones won't make it.
I thought you didn't want to argue 'interpretations'?
And yet, you have given me no shortage of 'translations.' Not sure why you are shying away now?


Because I already responded to this, re: saving entire households (which you have ignored) as well as people of the nations who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (and so will be declared righteous), and the sheep who are non-Christian, but who are also invited into the Kingdom, even called blessed.

The whole 'more than 50% won't make the cut' is on you to support. Not that a percentage has any bearing on WHO 'makes the cut' anyway.
If your belief was 'right', then the bible would not tell a Christian not to marry a non-Christian (2 Cor. 6:14) :) You could simply pray them into Heaven anyways, regardless of them ever believing later or not. And I already know where you might go... "Oh, it says that because the non-Christian' will corrupt you." But we all know that some people, of differing beliefs, get married, stay married, and not not try to 'corrupt' one another.

If the bases for being chosen, is upon works, which Matt 25 does speak about, then I guess we canignore what the Bible also states about your deeds being deemed filthy rags to God (Is. 64:6).

*************************

Okay, I'm stopping here.... to fast-forward to the end... This is where I see things thus far.... Please correct me where you see things differing....

Getting back to the OP, you seem to down-play the mourning of a lost loved one?

Not all go to Heaven. Hence, it's quite possible someone you truly love and cherish may not get there. You will never see them again.

Does this mean Heaven is not a blissful place, because you will deeply mourn the loss? Or, will you still achieve perfect bliss?

It's a truly dichotomous question... Will you, or won't you have complete bliss in heaven, if you should find out one of your loved ones is not there?

The original consensus still stands. If Heaven is a place of total bliss, seems as though God would need to 'zap' amnesia and/or dementia upon you?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #85

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:15 pm [Replying to POI in post #1]

I have two responses to the OP..

1. I have a friend of whom I occasionally have theological discussions with. He once gave me an illustration of what heaven will be like. He said that he received this illustration from somewhere, although I can't remember where.

Perhaps he got it from his LDS background..but anyway, the illustration goes a little something like this..(paraphrasing).

A guy had died, went to heaven, and was resurrected back to life.

His friends and family wanted him to share his experiences in heaven..and he pretty much told them..

"It is best that none of you ever experience HEAVEN before your due time".

Why? (They asked).

His response; Because Heaven is so great, so magnificent, that you would want to kill yourself in order to go back there.

Again, I am paraphrasing, but that is what I believe to be an accurate depiction of what Heaven is/will be like.

----------------------------------

2. My second point is; Dr. Craig (William Lane Craig) once stated that heaven will be so magnificent that we just simply won't be thinking about our loved ones who didn't make it.

He gave an illustration, that if we can imagine being in excruciating pain...are we thinking about the multiples of 2 while we are in pain, even though we know the multiples of 2? No, because our minds are focused on the pain.

If you are making love to your beautiful wife on your honeymoon, are you thinking about the square root of 25? No, you aren't.

Dr. Craig's point is; our minds will be focused on Heaven and being in the presence of God, that we simply won't be consumed with other thoughts.

Either that, or just realize that your loved ones didn't accept Christ and does not deserve to reap the benefits that those who did will receive.

That alone does it for me.
If you are in such a state of euphoria, where you completely forget/ignore your closest loved ones (eternally), then you would probably also forget/ignore everything else (eternally). You would merely only focus on your overly intense perpetual 'orgasm'. How could you then make room for acknowledging God?

And, is belief a choice?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #86

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:50 pm If you are in such a state of euphoria, where you completely forget/ignore your closest loved ones (eternally), then you would probably also forget/ignore everything else (eternally). You would merely only focus on your overly intense perpetual 'orgasm'. How could you then make room for acknowledging God?

And, is belief a choice?
Eternal heaven with God is the "end game". No more crying, worrying, tears, regrets. Our job as believers is to try to get as many behind the gates as possible.

Those that don't make it will not make it based on their own stubbornness and pride.

Is belief a choice? You tell me...are you choosing not to believe?

If the answer is yes, then there ya go.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #87

Post by POI »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:22 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:50 pm If you are in such a state of euphoria, where you completely forget/ignore your closest loved ones (eternally), then you would probably also forget/ignore everything else (eternally). You would merely only focus on your overly intense perpetual 'orgasm'. How could you then make room for acknowledging God?

And, is belief a choice?
Eternal heaven with God is the "end game". No more crying, worrying, tears, regrets. Our job as believers is to try to get as many behind the gates as possible.
Yes, you already agreed that Heaven would be a place of perfect bliss. But you look to have avoided my observation?

1. If you are in a state of "perpetual absolute orgasm", enough so to where you now perpetually ignore everything else, why adhere to any other rules here on earth? You know, all the other rules applied by the Bible? If the only importance is to streamline your euphoric relationship with God, then the Bible should be a one-pager.

2. Do the rules, that God gave you for earth, now longer apply in heaven? (i.e.) "love your neighbor as yourself", etc etc etc etc etc....? Is the only thing which happens, is to have a perpetual orgasmic bond between you and God? Nothing else exists or matters? You converse with no one in Heaven? You think about nothing but God 24/7? So basically, Heaven consists of millions/billions of souls having tunneled orgasmic feelings between themselves and God? And yet, you have absolutely no awareness of anyone else there around you?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:22 pm Those that don't make it will not make it based on their own stubbornness and pride.
Well, this is where we differ. Mark 16:16 clearly tells the reader that the ones which do not believe will be condemned. Belief is not a choice. Why?

If belief was a choice, you can MAKE yourself believe anything. And yet, if someone was to hold a gun to your head, and tell you to believe in Santa Claus, could you will such a belief? I'll save you the suspense, the answer is (no). Beliefs are inferred/apprehended. The many who do not believe, is because the evidence does not align with their logic. Sure, they could be wrong, but it has little/nothing to do with 'stubbornness'.

Now, to believe and then rebel, is a whole other ball game. But then the question becomes, isn't Christianity just a compulsory proposition? Meaning, follow or be condemned? You know, like U.S. tax laws for instance....
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #88

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm Yes, you already agreed that Heaven would be a place of perfect bliss. But you look to have avoided my observation?

1. If you are in a state of "perpetual absolute orgasm", enough so to where you now perpetually ignore everything else, why adhere to any other rules here on earth? You know, all the other rules applied by the Bible? If the only importance is to streamline your euphoric relationship with God, then the Bible should be a one-pager.
I guess I don't understand how your question of "why" steams from the "state of perpetual absolute orgasm".

I see no correlation. Please clarify.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm 2. Do the rules, that God gave you for earth, now longer apply in heaven? (i.e.) "love your neighbor as yourself", etc etc etc etc etc....? Is the only thing which happens, is to have a perpetual orgasmic bond between you and God? Nothing else exists or matters? You converse with no one in Heaven? You think about nothing but God 24/7? So basically, Heaven consists of millions/billions of souls having tunneled orgasmic feelings between themselves and God? And yet, you have absolutely no awareness of anyone else there around you?
Great questions. I don't know. I love playing chess. So does this mean that I won't be able to play (or lack a desire) to play chess in heaven? Will competitive games be allowed? Will there be such a desire?

I don't know.

Obviously, some desires will be wiped away from us in this "heavenly" state.

These questions are very difficult to answer, because with our human nature seemingly wiped away from us, we will have a completely different view of reality.

Lets take for example the chess example...in my human state, I enjoy the game. But in my heavenly/spiritual state, perhaps I may despise it...because it means that I will have to compete with my brother. Why would I want to compete with my brother?

See what I mean? So I don't know.

But one thing is clear, whatever state we will be in in heaven, we will be content.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm
Well, this is where we differ. Mark 16:16 clearly tells the reader that the ones which do not believe will be condemned. Belief is not a choice. Why?
I don't see how the connection between "those who do not believe will be condemned", to therefore, belief is not a choice.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm If belief was a choice, you can MAKE yourself believe anything. And yet, if someone was to hold a gun to your head, and tell you to believe in Santa Claus, could you will such a belief? I'll save you the suspense, the answer is (no). Beliefs are inferred/apprehended. The many who do not believe, is because the evidence does not align with their logic. Sure, they could be wrong, but it has little/nothing to do with 'stubbornness'.
Well, Biblically speaking, God called it "stiffnecked". When the sheppard is pulling on the sheep's neck to get it to go one direction, and the sheep stiffs its neck as a sign of "I don't want to go"...thus refusing to go.

That is stubbornness.

God is pulling on our necks to get us to follow him (Jesus) and most of us are refusing.

And you say the evidence doesn't align with logic. Well, that is a discussion for you and God to have...because to me, the evidence is very clear...and it is the logic that is taking me there.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm Now, to believe and then rebel, is a whole other ball game. But then the question becomes, isn't Christianity just a compulsory proposition? Meaning, follow or be condemned? You know, like U.S. tax laws for instance....
Consequences for everything.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #89

Post by POI »

Before I respond, I would like to thank you for your honesty :) Let's continue :)
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm Yes, you already agreed that Heaven would be a place of perfect bliss. But you look to have avoided my observation?

1. If you are in a state of "perpetual absolute orgasm", enough so to where you now perpetually ignore everything else, why adhere to any other rules here on earth? You know, all the other rules applied by the Bible? If the only importance is to streamline your euphoric relationship with God, then the Bible should be a one-pager.
I guess I don't understand how your question of "why" steams from the "state of perpetual absolute orgasm".
You make Heaven out to be a place where your ONLY concern is achieving a perpetual orgasmic feeling from God, and that NOTHING else matters or even appears to exist. Is this a fair assessment?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm 2. Do the rules, that God gave you for earth, now longer apply in heaven? (i.e.) "love your neighbor as yourself", etc etc etc etc etc....? Is the only thing which happens, is to have a perpetual orgasmic bond between you and God? Nothing else exists or matters? You converse with no one in Heaven? You think about nothing but God 24/7? So basically, Heaven consists of millions/billions of souls having tunneled orgasmic feelings between themselves and God? And yet, you have absolutely no awareness of anyone else there around you?
Great questions. I don't know. I love playing chess. So does this mean that I won't be able to play (or lack a desire) to play chess in heaven? Will competitive games be allowed? Will there be such a desire?

I don't know.

Obviously, some desires will be wiped away from us in this "heavenly" state.

These questions are very difficult to answer, because with our human nature seemingly wiped away from us, we will have a completely different view of reality.

Lets take for example the chess example...in my human state, I enjoy the game. But in my heavenly/spiritual state, perhaps I may despise it...because it means that I will have to compete with my brother. Why would I want to compete with my brother?

See what I mean? So I don't know.

But one thing is clear, whatever state we will be in in heaven, we will be content.
If you admit that you do not know, then you must still entertain the consensus view, that God zaps your conscious with amnesia and/or dementia :)


We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm
Well, this is where we differ. Mark 16:16 clearly tells the reader that the ones which do not believe will be condemned. Belief is not a choice. Why?
I don't see how the connection between "those who do not believe will be condemned", to therefore, belief is not a choice.
There's a difference between an 'atheist' and 'satan'.

- The atheist does not believe in god/gods.
- Satan believes and chooses to rebel.

The atheist is not rebelling. The atheist does not buy the story. Just like you are an 'aBigfootist' supposedly :) You do not buy the story of a real Bigfoot.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm If belief was a choice, you can MAKE yourself believe anything. And yet, if someone was to hold a gun to your head, and tell you to believe in Santa Claus, could you will such a belief? I'll save you the suspense, the answer is (no). Beliefs are inferred/apprehended. The many who do not believe, is because the evidence does not align with their logic. Sure, they could be wrong, but it has little/nothing to do with 'stubbornness'.
Well, Biblically speaking, God called it "stiffnecked". When the sheppard is pulling on the sheep's neck to get it to go one direction, and the sheep stiffs its neck as a sign of "I don't want to go"...thus refusing to go.

That is stubbornness.

God is pulling on our necks to get us to follow him (Jesus) and most of us are refusing.

And you say the evidence doesn't align with logic. Well, that is a discussion for you and God to have...because to me, the evidence is very clear...and it is the logic that is taking me there.
Please again refer to my analogy above, about Bigfoot. I could just as easily tell you that this is a conversation you will need to have with Bigfoot, after you are made aware of the 'truth'. "You must not currently believe in Bigfoot because you are "stiffnecked" ;) "We have many anecdotal sightings of Bigfoot". "The evidence is all around you" :)

Furthermore, you either believe or you don't. If I were to even 'steelman' your position, all this suggests is that the 'stiffnecked' is rebelling his/her true core belief. Meaning, deep down, (s)he knows it's true, and chooses to stiffen their neck, out of rebellion.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:28 pm
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:02 pm Now, to believe and then rebel, is a whole other ball game. But then the question becomes, isn't Christianity just a compulsory proposition? Meaning, follow or be condemned? You know, like U.S. tax laws for instance....
Consequences for everything.
If such reality is true, God and God alone created the realty. The chosen go to bliss, the unchosen go to "hell". What a fierce dichotomy? A dichotomy which God created. At least with taxes, the consequence has more than one plausible conclusion. God's apparent unified punishment is eternal torment, for something humans cannot even control.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

Post #90

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm Before I respond, I would like to thank you for your honesty :) Let's continue :)
Honesty is the best policy.

:handshake:
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm
You make Heaven out to be a place where your ONLY concern is achieving a perpetual orgasmic feeling from God, and that NOTHING else matters or even appears to exist. Is this a fair assessment?
Yes. Fair assessment.

If you admit that you do not know, then you must still entertain the consensus view, that God zaps your conscious with amnesia and/or dementia :)
Not necessarily. Because it could be the case that we will remember certain things, but we won't think about those things the same way in our spiritual state than we would in our human state.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm
There's a difference between an 'atheist' and 'satan'.

- The atheist does not believe in god/gods.
- Satan believes and chooses to rebel.

The atheist is not rebelling. The atheist does not buy the story.
Sure, that may be the distinction, but from a Biblical perspective, the atheists and Satan are going to the same place anyway.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm Just like you are an 'aBigfootist' supposedly :) You do not buy the story of a real Bigfoot.
I am an agnostic when it comes to Big Foot. :D
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm
Please again refer to my analogy above, about Bigfoot. I could just as easily tell you that this is a conversation you will need to have with Bigfoot, after you are made aware of the 'truth'. "You must not currently believe in Bigfoot because you are "stiffnecked" ;) "We have many anecdotal sightings of Bigfoot". "The evidence is all around you" :)
But it goes deeper than just not believing in Big Foot.

When it comes to God, the evidence of God's existence is weighing heavy on the positive side...so the scale is balanced heavily on one side...so being the logical person that I am, I must go where the evidence takes me, which is pretty much 100% all the way.

When it comes to Big Foot, I need to see what the evidence is for it, and against it...and then I will make my decision.
POI wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:57 pm Furthermore, you either believe or you don't. If I were to even 'steelman' your position, all this suggests is that the 'stiffnecked' is rebelling his/her true core belief. Meaning, deep down, (s)he knows it's true, and chooses to stiffen their neck, out of rebellion.
And that is exactly what I think it is.

It is my opinion that most of you, deep down inside, knows that there is a Creator, even if you don't know who this Creator is.

And most of you know deep down inside that Christianity is true, but since Christianity comes with moral accountability, you'd rather not be held accountability to this Cosmic Moral Agent, and would rather suppress the reality of it's existence by finding ways to convince yourself that it doesn't exist.

And since the Holy Spirit is in a constant state of convicting you, you need to constantly reinforce your rebellions by joining religious forums and thus reinforce your justifications for your continual state of disbelief.

That is just my opinion.

If such reality is true, God and God alone created the realty. The chosen go to bliss, the unchosen go to "hell". What a fierce dichotomy? A dichotomy which God created. At least with taxes, the consequence has more than one plausible conclusion. God's apparent unified punishment is eternal torment, for something humans cannot even control.
But it is something you can control. Here is an example of this control...

The Mona Lisa painting is a painting of a woman.

Would you agree that intelligent design is required for the creation of such a painting?

I assume you agree.

Now, if the painting of the woman requires intelligent design, then how much more intelligence is needed for the creation of the woman herself?

Hmmm?

Here is where the control comes in....your mind (common sense) agrees with me (assumed), but yet your own stubbornness to accept what the creation of the woman implies is preventing you from taking it all the way to "perhaps an intelligent designer created the woman".

That is something YOU can control. You decide whether you want to take it towards the direction that you know it should go, or whether you want to be stiffnecked.

The choice is yours.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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