Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

[POI]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).


**

But your scenario is not at all 'highly possible', quite the opposite. Even the example we are given in what is written is that God saves entire households, and add that to the promise that there will be no more mourning, or tears, or death or suffering. Not having our loved ones with us is not something I need to worry about. Anytime I have thought about it, I have been reminded in the spirit of these things that my Lord has taught me.

[POI]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).

This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.

Please remember, the Bible also insinuates that most will not make it to the 'promise land'. So if you should happen to make it, it's safe to say some of your closest will not. And as you already indicated, if you love them deeply, you could not help but to mourn their loss. I doubt you would be happy/blissful, and feel deep love for the God which destroyed your family/friends.

But your scenario is not at all 'highly possible', quite the opposite. Even the example we are given in what is written is that God saves entire households, and add that to the promise that there will be no more mourning, or tears, or death or suffering. Not having our loved ones with us is not something I need to worry about. Anytime I have thought about it, I have been reminded in the spirit of these things that my Lord has taught me.

As I stated above, God also insinuated that few make it to heaven. So in the off chance you make it, some of whom you truly love may not. It would be very hard not to feel perpetual sorrow, and resentment, unless God assigns you with amnesia and/or dementia

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).

This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.

At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.

Please remember, the Bible also insinuates that most will not make it to the 'promise land'. So if you should happen to make it, it's safe to say some of your closest will not. And as you already indicated, if you love them deeply, you could not help but to mourn their loss. I doubt you would be happy/blissful, and feel deep love for the God which destroyed your family/friends.

You're basing this (and the rest of your objections) off your own interpretations... and not off my faith or anything that I have said.

I'm not going to change the answer I gave you just because you don't accept it.

It is what it is.


Peace again.

[POI]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).

This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.

At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.

I think it's a little more than that On the one hand, you state that you would have a very deep connection to your closest loved ones. But then, on the other hand, you seem to somehow down-play how much you would mourn their destruction by God?

Further, you seem not to provide any protest to the Bible's notion that more than 50% will not make the cut. Hence, it's highly probable some of your closest loved ones won't make it.

So you mean to tell me, that as soon as God destroys them, you will accept God's choice, and not resent Him for it? And that you will continue in bliss, and love God more than anything? Do you see the disconnect in such logic?

Please remember, the Bible also insinuates that most will not make it to the 'promise land'. So if you should happen to make it, it's safe to say some of your closest will not. And as you already indicated, if you love them deeply, you could not help but to mourn their loss. I doubt you would be happy/blissful, and feel deep love for the God which destroyed your family/friends.

You're basing this (and the rest of your objections) off your own interpretations... and not off my faith or anything that I have said.

I'm not going to change the answer I gave you just because you don't accept it.

It is what it is.
Peace again.

I am aware of your interpretations. But I see inconsistencies in how you say you would react.

Again, you must admit that you do not know who God will, and will not elect. You must also admit that you do not know the full criteria for which He will use in His election process.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).

This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.

At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.

I think it's a little more than that On the one hand, you state that you would have a very deep connection to your closest loved ones. But then, on the other hand, you seem to somehow down-play how much you would mourn their destruction by God?

Would you mourn if you serial killer (adult) child was imprisoned for life (or given the death penalty) so as to keep them from harming and murdering other people? Would you not be sad that your (adult) child did these things, and because of that, they are not going to be with you, that they are going to miss out on the blessings that they could have had? Would you blame the judge for the sentence, or would you accept it as being something necessary to protect others?

Further, you seem not to provide any protest to the Bible's notion that more than 50% will not make the cut. Hence, it's highly probable some of your closest loved ones won't make it.

I thought you didn't want to argue 'interpretations'?

So you mean to tell me, that as soon as God destroys them, you will accept God's choice, and not resent Him for it? And that you will continue in bliss, and love God more than anything? Do you see the disconnect in such logic?

See example above, wherein someone is imprisoned (or put to death) in order to protect innocent people from them.

Please remember, the Bible also insinuates that most will not make it to the 'promise land'. So if you should happen to make it, it's safe to say some of your closest will not. And as you already indicated, if you love them deeply, you could not help but to mourn their loss. I doubt you would be happy/blissful, and feel deep love for the God which destroyed your family/friends.

You're basing this (and the rest of your objections) off your own interpretations... and not off my faith or anything that I have said.

I'm not going to change the answer I gave you just because you don't accept it.

It is what it is.
Peace again.

I am aware of your interpretations. But I see inconsistencies in how you say you would react.

I cannot help what you see.

Again, you must admit that you do not know who God will, and will not elect. You must also admit that you do not know the full criteria for which He will use in His election process.

I'm not sure why you're bringing 'election' into the conversation. It's not about election.


Peace again.

[POI]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #60]

From post 46 I think:

For the sake of argument, pretending such a thing is possible, I would mourn my loved ones (if they were gone forever). I would accept the decision (as in that loved one was going to cause harm and pain to innocent people, in the Kingdom, etc, for all time.) But I am sure I would mourn the death of a loved one, same as I suspect someone might mourn who believes death is the end, even now.

Not that I would have 'perfect bliss' if my loved one decided to attack and harm innocent people (for all time).

This is why I stated you almost answered the question.

If it's God's judgment, then you do not know how He will judge, unless you can read His mind. Sure, you can pluck out verses from the Bible, but so can I. If it should turn out His judgement does not align with your moral compass, you might find that you resent Him for dispatching one or more of your closest loved ones.

At this point, you're basically just telling me that I would not feel the way that I told you I would feel.

I think it's a little more than that On the one hand, you state that you would have a very deep connection to your closest loved ones. But then, on the other hand, you seem to somehow down-play how much you would mourn their destruction by God?

Would you mourn if you serial killer (adult) child was imprisoned for life (or given the death penalty) so as to keep them from harming and murdering other people? Would you not be sad that your (adult) child did these things, and because of that, they are not going to be with you, that they are going to miss out on the blessings that they could have had? Would you blame the judge for the sentence, or would you accept it as being something necessary to protect others?

Haha... You seem to think you know how God judges morals? Let's think-tank this for a moment... Where does murder rank upon the 10 Commandments? Which ones are listed above murder? Oh, that's right... "Worshiping other gods before Him", "dishonoring your parents", and "not keeping the Sabbath" are apparently deemed higher on that list; verses murder.

Heck, when Jesus was apparently asked directly, as to what is the greatest rule to follow, even He states (paraphrased) "love God first". Murder is not number one.

Furthermore, everyone is deemed a sinner. God hates all sin. Lying is also on that list of 10. It's safe to say you will lie until you die. Hence, once you die, does that means you will no longer lie? If the answer is yes, then it would stand to reason the murderer would no longer murder either, after death Hence, your analogy fails. Unless you wish to argue that people lie in Heaven? If not, God has to change something about them, so they no longer lie in Heaven. Thus, He can simply do the same for any other sin, like your example of murder.

Further, you seem not to provide any protest to the Bible's notion that more than 50% will not make the cut. Hence, it's highly probable some of your closest loved ones won't make it.

I thought you didn't want to argue 'interpretations'?

And yet, you have given me no shortage of 'translations.' Not sure why you are shying away now? Do you acknowledge that "narrow is the path to Heaven", according to the Bible? Assuming you do, then it's likely some of your loved ones are doomed.

If they lied just a little more than you, and are destroyed, are you so sure you will love God, worship Him, and rejoice in Him fully? You won't perpetually mourn your child, who is deemed a liar, just like you; but his/her lies just surpassed the threshold of acceptability?

So you mean to tell me, that as soon as God destroys them, you will accept God's choice, and not resent Him for it? And that you will continue in bliss, and love God more than anything? Do you see the disconnect in such logic?

See example above, wherein someone is imprisoned (or put to death) in order to protect innocent people from them.

Now that your example has been debunked, I will please ask that you answer the question:

So you mean to tell me, that as soon as God destroys them, you will accept God's choice, and not resent Him for it? And that you will continue in bliss, and love God more than anything? Do you see the disconnect in such logic?

[TRANSPONDER]

That's the relevant point. Tam of course can appeal to the need for Justice, or at least retribution and prevention of wrongdoers doing it. But the family, friends and relatives of someone banged up, or hanged, never mind being tortured in jail for life aren't going to feel happy about it, even if they admitted that he had it coming. This is why the thought experiment suggests that if heaven has its' problems, Hell simply isn't feasible. Unless God is simply a horrible being in which case nobody is safe, never mind you don't even know which god it is.

Let the Christian apologists make up all sorts of excuses and evasions like Purgatories of some sort so that UR replaces ET but with a sort of punishment in there just to frighten people enough to make Christians of them, or replacing Hellfire with 'Separation' which solves nothing. Either it's a pleasant existence or it isn't in which case it's still heaven and hellthreat but just not so extreme.

[tam]

Peace to you,

That's the relevant point. Tam of course can appeal to the need for Justice, or at least retribution and prevention of wrongdoers doing it.

I did not appeal to justice or retribution. Just protection of innocent people. Protection from God for His children from those who would do them harm? Who can legitimately fault that?

[POI]

Peace to you,

That's the relevant point. Tam of course can appeal to the need for Justice, or at least retribution and prevention of wrongdoers doing it.

I did not appeal to justice or retribution. Just protection of innocent people. Protection from God for His children from those who would do them harm? Who can legitimately fault that?

Your analogy fails. I trust we agree that God hates all sin? I trust we also agree that God deems all humans sinners? I trust we also agree that sin does not transpire in heaven? If you disagree anywhere up to here, please correct me? Assuming we agree, up to here, let's proceed...

If sin no longer exists in Heaven, but everyone was a sinner here on earth, then all can go to Heaven. Otherwise, no one is worthy. This is why Christians preach both grace and salvation. Meaning, God offers His grace to the undeserviing, which is every human, just as long as you have faith in Him.

Either way, no protection would be necessary All the ones in Heaven, are now innocent, as no sin exists in that realm, right?

[2ndpillar2]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

There is no "eternal torment" except apparently for the "false prophet, the devil, and the beast" (Revelation 20:10). Those who are not written in the book of life, simply face a second death after their deeds are judged. (Revelation 20:15) As for "heaven", as in the kingdom of God, that will be on earth, with David as king, ruling from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) & (Ezekiel 37). There will be no "bliss" for the disobedient, who will receive no rain in that circumstance (Zechariah 14:18), as in the nations/Gentiles, being ruled by a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). As for the non murderers, liars, and immoral, they will be within the gates (Revelation 22:14-15). Those outside, the "murders, etc., will look inside and weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:41-42). If someone is inside the gates, it would probably be your non lying family, with someone, who does not love the truth, being on the outside. They will probably see the justice in the results, whereas the lovers of lies, will continue to rant, and gnash their teeth.

The thought experiment still applies to you, all-the-same. I will lump you in with "Tam".

You find that you are in Heaven, a place of complete bliss. Your closest family and/or friends are gone. How will you achieve complete and total immediate bliss, and only bliss as you are in a perfect blissful place, without God assigning some sort of action upon you?

Well, you are representing a false choice.

Being that we appear to have countless sects to "Christianity", the given (thought experiment) may not apply to all of them If you feel this (thought experiment) does not apply to your particular flavor of Christianity, then maybe you should not have engaged at all. To instead offer up "how Christianity really is', is only to offer up a brand new argument; where the exchanging interlocutor instead is left to justify alternative interpretations, (with Bible verses). Which I certainly can, and have started to do with "Tam".

What I will not do, in this thread, is go chasing every alternative 'interpretation' from the Bible. This thread would never end, and nothing could ever be resolved. This is partially why the title of this thread states "(thought experiment)"

The provided concept pertains to the typical Protestant view, as well as any other adjacent belief and/or translation to the text from the Bible...

Thus far, seems that either (Protestant adjacent) believers are either not seeing this thread, or not engaging?

Or maybe you should not start your "thought experiment" on a false premise. Your "protestant" reformers began their journey on the premise that the Roman church was the "whore of Babylon", which is to say a daughter of Babylon, and they are in fact daughters of that "whore of Babylon", which is to say, like mother like daughter (Ezekiel 16:44). Which is to say they are both the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14), and for you to follow their lead, the ultimate fate of taking this illusionary "thought experiment" seriously, is to fall in the same hole.

Well, I no longer ascribe to any of what the Bible asserts, as it does not look to be grounded in reality. It's an (a priori / faith) based proposition, where two earnest readers can formulate mutually opposing conclusions, and where both parties can site chapter and verse to support their mutually exclusive conclusions to boot; which at best, for you, represents a creator who has no problem being the purveyor of confusion to the masses. And at worst, is instead a man-made book alone, with presented inconsistencies.

Maybe we can start by investigating (your translations) instead? You do not see any inherent problems with them? It's all consistent? Not really sure how that is possible, without omission of some verses? You might be wise in re-evaluating the apparent pitfalls of your conclusions; and then ask yourself... Is it "not as bad", "just as bad", or "worse" than that of the "Protestant" perspective... Where one must attempt to reconcile "perfect bliss", while in heaven?

If you start out with thinking that the Catholic church is holy,

Um, I literally just told you I do not ascribe to any of it The Bible appears to be a collection of stories and assertions, created by man. --- Some likely true, some likely false, some likely legend, some likely lore, some likely other... My participation here, in this (thought experiment), is to ask a large populous of Christians, how they would reconcile bliss in heaven, while knowing some of their closest loved ones are away from them eternally; by way of torment or other? Seems as if no "traditional Christian" wants to field this topic thus far? I only seem to be getting responses from more fringe-based Christian ideologies. And like I already said prior, my objective, in this thread, is not to debate which version of Christianity IS the correct interpretation So pardon me if I do not chase the rabbit trails here....

along with their canon, which is the starting point of the Protestant faith, then you apparently have one foot in a pit (Proverbs 20:25). If you think that the false gospel of grace/cross, put forward by the false prophet Paul, is on par with the gospel of the kingdom, then you are probably starting your race with one leg tied to an arm. Without those false starting points, there is not much of a problem in seeing the truth. And where did you get your notion of "perfect bliss", and your idea of heaven? They kind of seem like the traditions of men. The kingdom is described as when each one will sit under their own vine (Micah 4:4), which would only be "blissful" for someone who doesn't mind trimming their own vines, and making their own wine. Plus, that vine will be on earth, and not on some star ship in space. Your "Protestant perspective" seems limited to certain sects. I get Jehovah witnesses visiting my house every so many years, and their vision seems different, as well as the story by the very few Mormons coming to my door. According to Joseph Smith, to become a "god" they must have multiple wives, and then they will rule different worlds. I don't know, but from what I have heard, having multiple wives, with many children, is hard on the wives as well as the children, and it can't be easy for some guy who thinks he is a god, and yet can't keep harmony in his own house. Wading in the traditions of men, is like wading in a mud or tar pit. A good way to get nowhere. Yeshua came to be a light upon the Law and the prophets, in which the focus is the "kingdom of heaven". The problem is that the "wicked" cannot understand (Daniel 12:10), for they have not eyes to see (Matthew 13:13), and therefore they must first turn from wickedness/lawlessness, to righteousness, (Ezekiel 18:21) by confessing their sins, repenting, producing good fruit, and getting baptized (Matthew 3). The alternate solution is to have the blind lead the blind, and both falling into a pit.

Tell me when it's my turn to cherry pick passages from the Bible, in direct opposition to your 'translations'? We could be here until we both die of natural causes.

Please keep in mind that I'm here as a casual observer. It would be no different than me discussing any other work of fiction. You know, like your run-o-da-mill book club meeting, where two or more interlocutors go head to head about various topics/translations about a book we both just read.

If you feel your translation has no part in my inquiry, then please do not waste mine, or your time, attempting to defend an alternative view. Maybe create a new topic, about how "Catholics/others are wrong", and stop wasting my time here.

Thanks

You can "cherry pick" to your hearts content. Now whether you make sense is another matter. As for dying of "natural causes", I am thinking that the kingdom of "heaven" is at hand (Matthew 24), which kind of puts your coming death as probably being not of "natural causes" but one preempted by a "great earthquake" (Revelation 16:18-21) whereas "islands fled away", "mountains were not found", and "huge hailstones of one hundred pound each, came down from heaven upon men". As for you being a "casual observer", that is like saying someone throwing a lighted fire into a theatre is a "casual observer". As for "two interlocutors" going head to head, you apparently want to set the rules in line with your made up book you "just read". Your observations line up with traditions of men, and little to do with what is in the book, as if you read someone else's book report. I suggest that before you do your book club meeting, that you actually read the book. As for your "time", if you are here, you apparently have time to waste.