You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
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Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #2I've heard some resolve this dilemma by claiming we'll have no memory of our loved ones who end up in hell. Amnesia induced bliss? Doesn't make sense to me. They'd still be absent from your life.POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
In your example above, it couldn't possibly be blissful. Living with a constant awareness that your loved ones will be suffering eternal torment would be anything but bliss. The enmity this would create against YHWH would also result in a very unpleasant existence. I'd spend eternity trying to figure out how to break them out. Given that YHWH is all mighty, this would fail and simply add to the deep unpleasantness of Heaven.
Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #3POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward?
Yes. Blissful dementia.
.................................
.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #4Sounds awesome!Miles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:36 pmPOI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward?
Yes. Blissful dementia.
.................................
.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #5Peace to you,
How could anyone be 'blissful' knowing that their loved ones (spouse and children especially) are in eternal torment?
That is a thing of nightmares.
I am in pain if my children are in pain. Their distress is my distress. How in the world could I be in perpetual bliss knowing that my children are in perpetual agony?
I would have to cease being a sentient empathetic being in order to be able to care nothing for their pain. I mean part of that peace and happiness from being in Christ, in the Kingdom, is knowing also that your loved ones are going to be with you as well.
Because of his faith, Abraham saved himself and his household.
Because of his faith, Noah saved himself and his household.
The blood of the lamb on a house, protected everyone (including every firstborn) in that house when Death/the Destroyer passed over (in Egypt). As long as someone had the faith to put that blood on the doorpost, that entire house was protected from Death/the Destroyer.
We do not have to worry about our loved ones.
I mean, no one has to worry about anyone suffering eternal torment in 'hell', because that is a false doctrine. But also if we are in Christ, and perhaps a loved one does not believe, then we do not have to worry about them. We do not have to worry about anything. But there are more than just Christians who enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life. And the Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations... (healing of any ailment, physical, emotional, mental).
GOOD news!
Not sad news. Not terrifying-beyond-all-belief news.
GOOD NEWS!!
Peace again to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course not.POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
How could anyone be 'blissful' knowing that their loved ones (spouse and children especially) are in eternal torment?
That is a thing of nightmares.
I am in pain if my children are in pain. Their distress is my distress. How in the world could I be in perpetual bliss knowing that my children are in perpetual agony?
I would have to cease being a sentient empathetic being in order to be able to care nothing for their pain. I mean part of that peace and happiness from being in Christ, in the Kingdom, is knowing also that your loved ones are going to be with you as well.
Because of his faith, Abraham saved himself and his household.
Because of his faith, Noah saved himself and his household.
The blood of the lamb on a house, protected everyone (including every firstborn) in that house when Death/the Destroyer passed over (in Egypt). As long as someone had the faith to put that blood on the doorpost, that entire house was protected from Death/the Destroyer.
We do not have to worry about our loved ones.
I mean, no one has to worry about anyone suffering eternal torment in 'hell', because that is a false doctrine. But also if we are in Christ, and perhaps a loved one does not believe, then we do not have to worry about them. We do not have to worry about anything. But there are more than just Christians who enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life. And the Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations... (healing of any ailment, physical, emotional, mental).
GOOD news!
Not sad news. Not terrifying-beyond-all-belief news.
GOOD NEWS!!
Peace again to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #6Heaven'll always be a thought experiment.
To propose otherwise is it's own thought experiment.
To propose otherwise is it's own thought experiment.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #7In the knowing, this would be resolved. Imagine now that when you ascended, you merged with God or at least merged with godly knowledge. This is no longer your beloved family that you had no idea were bad people... you now know exactly why they were bad people, what they did that was evil, and why that was evil. No, you don't love them anymore.POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pmYHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best.
Most people don't even love their spouse anymore after they find out she's cheated on them. Now imagine that instead of just hurting you in a frankly purely emotional way, you suddenly find out that they hurt everyone in an objective way and it was deliberate. They're bad people. Yes, if you're good, you hate them now. Or at least, you understand well enough why this has to be their fate that you wouldn't change it if you could.
Imagine finding out your wife is a horrible, unapologetic racist, and she doesn't want to change. If you're a truly good person, you drop her like a ton of bricks.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #8What I find interesting is how the doctrine of hell has found a place in the psyche of a large proportion of Human beings.POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
We are informed that Heaven and Earth will pass away. Whereas bliss or torment are permanent fixtures.
The doctrine of Hell is for those who believe in its reality.
I cannot even contemplate the thought experiment re OP as - for me at least - it is an impossible scenario which can never be experienced by me, due to my understanding that in the next phase reality experience, the things we believe [shaped by the personality we are at that time] are directly responsible for the things we will create for ourselves to experience.
There is the real idea that how we each see ourselves is not as others see us. Others see us depending on their own perceptions and what filters are in place, and these are different than the filters we use for our own perceptions about our self.
Those who believe that the OP scenario is possible, are more likely to experience such a thing simply because of that.
Others cannot imagine such a thing being something they could possible experience as real.
Ultimately the idea of some god/devil-entity having such power as the OP presents, is the creation of Human imagination.
If such a scenario ever becomes a real experience for any individual reading this, one might want to remember the possibility that it is the product of ones own imagination and deal with it in those terms.
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #9I asked a similar question when I was a christian. The best answer I got was "God will give you the knowledge to know and understand what happened and be content with it."POI wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:31 pm You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.
You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".
Question:
Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?
Another cop-out but not totally unexpected.
I've also heard people claim heaven will be 'praising god forever non-stop'. What an atrocious and vulgar thought! Past the fact no one on earth has been able to, can or will be able to understand 'forever', the thought of kissing god's derrière forever (which is what praising him is as it does nothing for you as you're already in heaven) is enough to make one vomit!
To your specific question: Unless god removes your memory, then NO, it's not blissful.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)
Post #10 I've been looking for this.
Aside from which, 'perfect bliss' seems to rely on taking away everything that is 'You' and making one an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas without a 'you' even there to enjoy it. Personally I can't see that as much better as Oblivion, which i what atheism offers.
One ...opponent doesn't seem the right time for this intelligent and polite lady - but she argued that eternity might work for you or me on a day to day basis. Maybe. But then the atheist afterlife caters for that by rejecting Hell. how can you live in bliss when others are frying tonight? You have to lose your humanity and even mid to make it possible. So any afterlife has no hell, so no one religion has the ticket -concession. That's curtains for you, Abrahamics.n
The Atheist afterlife is a natural one we all get - yes even Jack the Ripper, as what's the point in revenge? In fact you think it through and even that afterlife sounds like one that would get really old after the second billion years of hearing a cereal killer (pours warm milk over his victims) gloating over their exploits while you're trying to watch a video performance of Shakespeare's latest film, 'Ye withdrawale fromm Vietnamme part the wunn''. Yep, Oblivion really seems a better option than that, never mind grovelling to God for eternity.
Aside from which, 'perfect bliss' seems to rely on taking away everything that is 'You' and making one an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas without a 'you' even there to enjoy it. Personally I can't see that as much better as Oblivion, which i what atheism offers.
One ...opponent doesn't seem the right time for this intelligent and polite lady - but she argued that eternity might work for you or me on a day to day basis. Maybe. But then the atheist afterlife caters for that by rejecting Hell. how can you live in bliss when others are frying tonight? You have to lose your humanity and even mid to make it possible. So any afterlife has no hell, so no one religion has the ticket -concession. That's curtains for you, Abrahamics.n
The Atheist afterlife is a natural one we all get - yes even Jack the Ripper, as what's the point in revenge? In fact you think it through and even that afterlife sounds like one that would get really old after the second billion years of hearing a cereal killer (pours warm milk over his victims) gloating over their exploits while you're trying to watch a video performance of Shakespeare's latest film, 'Ye withdrawale fromm Vietnamme part the wunn''. Yep, Oblivion really seems a better option than that, never mind grovelling to God for eternity.