Is Heaven a Place of Complete Bliss? (Thought Experiment)

[POI]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

[POI]

Heaven is a state of mind, and so is every other thing including hell and even Earth and universe. Man's mind creates all these; and yes heaven is all bliss.

Okay?

[2ndpillar2]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

There is no "eternal torment" except apparently for the "false prophet, the devil, and the beast" (Revelation 20:10). Those who are not written in the book of life, simply face a second death after their deeds are judged. (Revelation 20:15) As for "heaven", as in the kingdom of God, that will be on earth, with David as king, ruling from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) & (Ezekiel 37). There will be no "bliss" for the disobedient, who will receive no rain in that circumstance (Zechariah 14:18), as in the nations/Gentiles, being ruled by a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). As for the non murderers, liars, and immoral, they will be within the gates (Revelation 22:14-15). Those outside, the "murders, etc., will look inside and weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:41-42). If someone is inside the gates, it would probably be your non lying family, with someone, who does not love the truth, being on the outside. They will probably see the justice in the results, whereas the lovers of lies, will continue to rant, and gnash their teeth.

The thought experiment still applies to you, all-the-same. I will lump you in with "Tam".

You find that you are in Heaven, a place of complete bliss. Your closest family and/or friends are gone. How will you achieve complete and total immediate bliss, and only bliss as you are in a perfect blissful place, without God assigning some sort of action upon you?

Well, you are representing a false choice.

Being that we appear to have countless sects to "Christianity", the given (thought experiment) may not apply to all of them If you feel this (thought experiment) does not apply to your particular flavor of Christianity, then maybe you should not have engaged at all. To instead offer up "how Christianity really is', is only to offer up a brand new argument; where the exchanging interlocutor instead is left to justify alternative interpretations, (with Bible verses). Which I certainly can, and have started to do with "Tam".

What I will not do, in this thread, is go chasing every alternative 'interpretation' from the Bible. This thread would never end, and nothing could ever be resolved. This is partially why the title of this thread states "(thought experiment)"

The provided concept pertains to the typical Protestant view, as well as any other adjacent belief and/or translation to the text from the Bible...

Thus far, seems that either (Protestant adjacent) believers are either not seeing this thread, or not engaging?

Or maybe you should not start your "thought experiment" on a false premise. Your "protestant" reformers began their journey on the premise that the Roman church was the "whore of Babylon", which is to say a daughter of Babylon, and they are in fact daughters of that "whore of Babylon", which is to say, like mother like daughter (Ezekiel 16:44). Which is to say they are both the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14), and for you to follow their lead, the ultimate fate of taking this illusionary "thought experiment" seriously, is to fall in the same hole.

[POI]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

There is no "eternal torment" except apparently for the "false prophet, the devil, and the beast" (Revelation 20:10). Those who are not written in the book of life, simply face a second death after their deeds are judged. (Revelation 20:15) As for "heaven", as in the kingdom of God, that will be on earth, with David as king, ruling from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) & (Ezekiel 37). There will be no "bliss" for the disobedient, who will receive no rain in that circumstance (Zechariah 14:18), as in the nations/Gentiles, being ruled by a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). As for the non murderers, liars, and immoral, they will be within the gates (Revelation 22:14-15). Those outside, the "murders, etc., will look inside and weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:41-42). If someone is inside the gates, it would probably be your non lying family, with someone, who does not love the truth, being on the outside. They will probably see the justice in the results, whereas the lovers of lies, will continue to rant, and gnash their teeth.

The thought experiment still applies to you, all-the-same. I will lump you in with "Tam".

You find that you are in Heaven, a place of complete bliss. Your closest family and/or friends are gone. How will you achieve complete and total immediate bliss, and only bliss as you are in a perfect blissful place, without God assigning some sort of action upon you?

Well, you are representing a false choice.

Being that we appear to have countless sects to "Christianity", the given (thought experiment) may not apply to all of them If you feel this (thought experiment) does not apply to your particular flavor of Christianity, then maybe you should not have engaged at all. To instead offer up "how Christianity really is', is only to offer up a brand new argument; where the exchanging interlocutor instead is left to justify alternative interpretations, (with Bible verses). Which I certainly can, and have started to do with "Tam".

What I will not do, in this thread, is go chasing every alternative 'interpretation' from the Bible. This thread would never end, and nothing could ever be resolved. This is partially why the title of this thread states "(thought experiment)"

The provided concept pertains to the typical Protestant view, as well as any other adjacent belief and/or translation to the text from the Bible...

Thus far, seems that either (Protestant adjacent) believers are either not seeing this thread, or not engaging?

Or maybe you should not start your "thought experiment" on a false premise. Your "protestant" reformers began their journey on the premise that the Roman church was the "whore of Babylon", which is to say a daughter of Babylon, and they are in fact daughters of that "whore of Babylon", which is to say, like mother like daughter (Ezekiel 16:44). Which is to say they are both the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14), and for you to follow their lead, the ultimate fate of taking this illusionary "thought experiment" seriously, is to fall in the same hole.

Well, I no longer ascribe to any of what the Bible asserts, as it does not look to be grounded in reality. It's an (a priori / faith) based proposition, where two earnest readers can formulate mutually opposing conclusions, and where both parties can site chapter and verse to support their mutually exclusive conclusions to boot; which at best, for you, represents a creator who has no problem being the purveyor of confusion to the masses. And at worst, is instead a man-made book alone, with presented inconsistencies.

Maybe we can start by investigating (your translations) instead? You do not see any inherent problems with them? It's all consistent? Not really sure how that is possible, without omission of some verses? You might be wise in re-evaluating the apparent pitfalls of your conclusions; and then ask yourself... Is it "not as bad", "just as bad", or "worse" than that of the "Protestant" perspective... Where one must attempt to reconcile "perfect bliss", while in heaven?

[2ndpillar2]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

There is no "eternal torment" except apparently for the "false prophet, the devil, and the beast" (Revelation 20:10). Those who are not written in the book of life, simply face a second death after their deeds are judged. (Revelation 20:15) As for "heaven", as in the kingdom of God, that will be on earth, with David as king, ruling from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) & (Ezekiel 37). There will be no "bliss" for the disobedient, who will receive no rain in that circumstance (Zechariah 14:18), as in the nations/Gentiles, being ruled by a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). As for the non murderers, liars, and immoral, they will be within the gates (Revelation 22:14-15). Those outside, the "murders, etc., will look inside and weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:41-42). If someone is inside the gates, it would probably be your non lying family, with someone, who does not love the truth, being on the outside. They will probably see the justice in the results, whereas the lovers of lies, will continue to rant, and gnash their teeth.

The thought experiment still applies to you, all-the-same. I will lump you in with "Tam".

You find that you are in Heaven, a place of complete bliss. Your closest family and/or friends are gone. How will you achieve complete and total immediate bliss, and only bliss as you are in a perfect blissful place, without God assigning some sort of action upon you?

Well, you are representing a false choice.

Being that we appear to have countless sects to "Christianity", the given (thought experiment) may not apply to all of them If you feel this (thought experiment) does not apply to your particular flavor of Christianity, then maybe you should not have engaged at all. To instead offer up "how Christianity really is', is only to offer up a brand new argument; where the exchanging interlocutor instead is left to justify alternative interpretations, (with Bible verses). Which I certainly can, and have started to do with "Tam".

What I will not do, in this thread, is go chasing every alternative 'interpretation' from the Bible. This thread would never end, and nothing could ever be resolved. This is partially why the title of this thread states "(thought experiment)"

The provided concept pertains to the typical Protestant view, as well as any other adjacent belief and/or translation to the text from the Bible...

Thus far, seems that either (Protestant adjacent) believers are either not seeing this thread, or not engaging?

Or maybe you should not start your "thought experiment" on a false premise. Your "protestant" reformers began their journey on the premise that the Roman church was the "whore of Babylon", which is to say a daughter of Babylon, and they are in fact daughters of that "whore of Babylon", which is to say, like mother like daughter (Ezekiel 16:44). Which is to say they are both the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14), and for you to follow their lead, the ultimate fate of taking this illusionary "thought experiment" seriously, is to fall in the same hole.

Well, I no longer ascribe to any of what the Bible asserts, as it does not look to be grounded in reality. It's an (a priori / faith) based proposition, where two earnest readers can formulate mutually opposing conclusions, and where both parties can site chapter and verse to support their mutually exclusive conclusions to boot; which at best, for you, represents a creator who has no problem being the purveyor of confusion to the masses. And at worst, is instead a man-made book alone, with presented inconsistencies.

Maybe we can start by investigating (your translations) instead? You do not see any inherent problems with them? It's all consistent? Not really sure how that is possible, without omission of some verses? You might be wise in re-evaluating the apparent pitfalls of your conclusions; and then ask yourself... Is it "not as bad", "just as bad", or "worse" than that of the "Protestant" perspective... Where one must attempt to reconcile "perfect bliss", while in heaven?

If you start out with thinking that the Catholic church is holy, along with their canon, which is the starting point of the Protestant faith, then you apparently have one foot in a pit (Proverbs 20:25). If you think that the false gospel of grace/cross, put forward by the false prophet Paul, is on par with the gospel of the kingdom, then you are probably starting your race with one leg tied to an arm. Without those false starting points, there is not much of a problem in seeing the truth. And where did you get your notion of "perfect bliss", and your idea of heaven? They kind of seem like the traditions of men. The kingdom is described as when each one will sit under their own vine (Micah 4:4), which would only be "blissful" for someone who doesn't mind trimming their own vines, and making their own wine. Plus, that vine will be on earth, and not on some star ship in space. Your "Protestant perspective" seems limited to certain sects. I get Jehovah witnesses visiting my house every so many years, and their vision seems different, as well as the story by the very few Mormons coming to my door. According to Joseph Smith, to become a "god" they must have multiple wives, and then they will rule different worlds. I don't know, but from what I have heard, having multiple wives, with many children, is hard on the wives as well as the children, and it can't be easy for some guy who thinks he is a god, and yet can't keep harmony in his own house. Wading in the traditions of men, is like wading in a mud or tar pit. A good way to get nowhere. Yeshua came to be a light upon the Law and the prophets, in which the focus is the "kingdom of heaven". The problem is that the "wicked" cannot understand (Daniel 12:10), for they have not eyes to see (Matthew 13:13), and therefore they must first turn from wickedness/lawlessness, to righteousness, (Ezekiel 18:21) by confessing their sins, repenting, producing good fruit, and getting baptized (Matthew 3). The alternate solution is to have the blind lead the blind, and both falling into a pit.

[tam]

Peace to you,

The common consensus is God would either need to endow you with amnesia and/or dementia. Is this common consensus ignorant or deceptive? Or, do you also reconcile the same assessment of amnesia/dementia? Please explain your rationale here, and why your conclusion is not deemed (ignorant or deceptive)?

I find that suggestion (amnesia/dementia) to be so ridiculous and pointless that I do not know how to even imagine the logistics of such a thing. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but is God supposed to just 'zap zap zap' individual memories of loved ones? Loved ones (especially children, spouses, parents, brothers) are so intertwined in our lives and in our memories, that is just... well like I said, I can't even imagine it. I don't even know anyone who suggests such a thing.

Nor do I need to imagine it, though, because there is just no need for it.

I noticed you completely skipped my assessment about Mark 16:16, in post #36. Why?

I started to respond to it, saw that you had another comment on something from me, and responded to that instead. I thought that might be enough food for thought to address your post 36, but I can go back to it directly.


Mind you, if you just wanted to hear from people who believe the things you wrote in the OP, then I'm not sure my responses matter at all. You didn't clarify that in your OP, though. Anyone can take part in a thought experiment.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #18]

So, which one is it? Are most Protestants ignorant or deceptive?

Does it matter?

Protestants (like most other groups) are not one single-minded entity, so I would suggest it is a mixture of both. Some are deceptive and/or ignorant, some are misled and/or ignorant (where ignorant simply means lacking knowledge).

Yes it does matter. It's safe to say that millions, who are brought up Protestant, are told they will burn in hell if (this or that).... Further, you openly admit that if you are a run-o-da-mill Protestant, you are either ignorant and/or deceptive.

I meant, does it matter to whether or not the doctrine is true or false?

And everyone in the world is ignorant about something. That wasn't a judgment from me. If people believe and/or teach something false, then there is ignorance and/or deception involved.

Your response still asserts that the average Protestant is either (ignorant and/or deceptive) about the Bible's translation for hell. Which one is it?

Asked and answered (see bold and underlined above).

But wait.. Maybe it still does. Could you reside with God, in bliss, if He 'disappeared' your closest loved ones for non-belief/non-repent?

No one gets 'disappeared' for non-belief.

Wrong. Reading the Bible, axiomatically, the unbeliever is 'condemned' for unbelief. (i.e.)

Mark 16:16 -- "16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Thus, is 'condemned' referring to (annihilation or eternal torment)?

Well its not referring to eternal torment. Might be referring to death. The default position (until Christ returns) is that everyone dies, and without Christ no one can receive a resurrection or have eternal life.
BUT...

There is also MERCY (which comes from love). So that non-Christians may also receive eternal life and entrance into the Kingdom, based upon their deeds to even a least one of Christ's brothers (as portrayed by the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable). And as Paul also explains, there are people who will be declared righteous because they show that the law (love) is written upon their hearts, based on them doing the things required by that law NATURALLY.

See the link to the other thread (A Good God would not send a decent atheist to hell)

The Pharisees did not take mercy into account of many things, which was why they were quick to condemn. This is also why Christ said to them "Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice." (this is actually a quote of Hosea 6:6)

It's no different today in religion. Many people still don't understand that mercy (perhaps most often because the so-called 'leaders and teachers' don't understand it, and you can't teach what you don't know).

As well, not having my loved ones with me is also not something I need to worry about (previous post touches on the reasons for that).

So I'm not sure I can make it apply.

The beauty with the Bible is that you can pick and choose many passages, to taste. Meaning, you must merely also ignore the Verse I provided above, to fit your alternative 'conclusion'.

I don't need to ignore it, but I would not put it above all that my Lord has taught me. Would you be ignoring the following verses then?

"Do not judge and you will not be judged."
"Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."
"Forgive and you will be forgiven."


Peace again.

[POI]

You are involved in a car wreck with your spouse and children. Sad news... None of you survive.

You regain consciousness and find that you are in what looks to be Heaven. You see what you believe to be YHWH standing before you. Indeed, it is YHWH. You then look around to see if your closest loved ones are near by. You notice they are all absent. You then first ask YHWH, "where are my kids and spouse?" YHWH replies, "they now reside in hell." You ask why? YHWH responds, "because they were not selected for this realm". You then inquire further, and ultimately beg and plead for God to reconsider their decided fate. But of course, you know that God is all mighty and knows what is best. You also ask God what hell is like for them. He again responds, "well, you've read my Book, right?" You then ask Him, point/blank, "are they in a place of eternal torment then?" He states, "yes".

Question:

Is Heaven a completely blissful place, moving forward? If so, why?

There is no "eternal torment" except apparently for the "false prophet, the devil, and the beast" (Revelation 20:10). Those who are not written in the book of life, simply face a second death after their deeds are judged. (Revelation 20:15) As for "heaven", as in the kingdom of God, that will be on earth, with David as king, ruling from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) & (Ezekiel 37). There will be no "bliss" for the disobedient, who will receive no rain in that circumstance (Zechariah 14:18), as in the nations/Gentiles, being ruled by a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15). As for the non murderers, liars, and immoral, they will be within the gates (Revelation 22:14-15). Those outside, the "murders, etc., will look inside and weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:41-42). If someone is inside the gates, it would probably be your non lying family, with someone, who does not love the truth, being on the outside. They will probably see the justice in the results, whereas the lovers of lies, will continue to rant, and gnash their teeth.

The thought experiment still applies to you, all-the-same. I will lump you in with "Tam".

You find that you are in Heaven, a place of complete bliss. Your closest family and/or friends are gone. How will you achieve complete and total immediate bliss, and only bliss as you are in a perfect blissful place, without God assigning some sort of action upon you?

Well, you are representing a false choice.

Being that we appear to have countless sects to "Christianity", the given (thought experiment) may not apply to all of them If you feel this (thought experiment) does not apply to your particular flavor of Christianity, then maybe you should not have engaged at all. To instead offer up "how Christianity really is', is only to offer up a brand new argument; where the exchanging interlocutor instead is left to justify alternative interpretations, (with Bible verses). Which I certainly can, and have started to do with "Tam".

What I will not do, in this thread, is go chasing every alternative 'interpretation' from the Bible. This thread would never end, and nothing could ever be resolved. This is partially why the title of this thread states "(thought experiment)"

The provided concept pertains to the typical Protestant view, as well as any other adjacent belief and/or translation to the text from the Bible...

Thus far, seems that either (Protestant adjacent) believers are either not seeing this thread, or not engaging?

Or maybe you should not start your "thought experiment" on a false premise. Your "protestant" reformers began their journey on the premise that the Roman church was the "whore of Babylon", which is to say a daughter of Babylon, and they are in fact daughters of that "whore of Babylon", which is to say, like mother like daughter (Ezekiel 16:44). Which is to say they are both the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14), and for you to follow their lead, the ultimate fate of taking this illusionary "thought experiment" seriously, is to fall in the same hole.

Well, I no longer ascribe to any of what the Bible asserts, as it does not look to be grounded in reality. It's an (a priori / faith) based proposition, where two earnest readers can formulate mutually opposing conclusions, and where both parties can site chapter and verse to support their mutually exclusive conclusions to boot; which at best, for you, represents a creator who has no problem being the purveyor of confusion to the masses. And at worst, is instead a man-made book alone, with presented inconsistencies.

Maybe we can start by investigating (your translations) instead? You do not see any inherent problems with them? It's all consistent? Not really sure how that is possible, without omission of some verses? You might be wise in re-evaluating the apparent pitfalls of your conclusions; and then ask yourself... Is it "not as bad", "just as bad", or "worse" than that of the "Protestant" perspective... Where one must attempt to reconcile "perfect bliss", while in heaven?

If you start out with thinking that the Catholic church is holy,

Um, I literally just told you I do not ascribe to any of it The Bible appears to be a collection of stories and assertions, created by man. --- Some likely true, some likely false, some likely legend, some likely lore, some likely other... My participation here, in this (thought experiment), is to ask a large populous of Christians, how they would reconcile bliss in heaven, while knowing some of their closest loved ones are away from them eternally; by way of torment or other? Seems as if no "traditional Christian" wants to field this topic thus far? I only seem to be getting responses from more fringe-based Christian ideologies. And like I already said prior, my objective, in this thread, is not to debate which version of Christianity IS the correct interpretation So pardon me if I do not chase the rabbit trails here....

along with their canon, which is the starting point of the Protestant faith, then you apparently have one foot in a pit (Proverbs 20:25). If you think that the false gospel of grace/cross, put forward by the false prophet Paul, is on par with the gospel of the kingdom, then you are probably starting your race with one leg tied to an arm. Without those false starting points, there is not much of a problem in seeing the truth. And where did you get your notion of "perfect bliss", and your idea of heaven? They kind of seem like the traditions of men. The kingdom is described as when each one will sit under their own vine (Micah 4:4), which would only be "blissful" for someone who doesn't mind trimming their own vines, and making their own wine. Plus, that vine will be on earth, and not on some star ship in space. Your "Protestant perspective" seems limited to certain sects. I get Jehovah witnesses visiting my house every so many years, and their vision seems different, as well as the story by the very few Mormons coming to my door. According to Joseph Smith, to become a "god" they must have multiple wives, and then they will rule different worlds. I don't know, but from what I have heard, having multiple wives, with many children, is hard on the wives as well as the children, and it can't be easy for some guy who thinks he is a god, and yet can't keep harmony in his own house. Wading in the traditions of men, is like wading in a mud or tar pit. A good way to get nowhere. Yeshua came to be a light upon the Law and the prophets, in which the focus is the "kingdom of heaven". The problem is that the "wicked" cannot understand (Daniel 12:10), for they have not eyes to see (Matthew 13:13), and therefore they must first turn from wickedness/lawlessness, to righteousness, (Ezekiel 18:21) by confessing their sins, repenting, producing good fruit, and getting baptized (Matthew 3). The alternate solution is to have the blind lead the blind, and both falling into a pit.

Tell me when it's my turn to cherry pick passages from the Bible, in direct opposition to your 'translations'? We could be here until we both die of natural causes.

Please keep in mind that I'm here as a casual observer. It would be no different than me discussing any other work of fiction. You know, like your run-o-da-mill book club meeting, where two or more interlocutors go head to head about various topics/translations about a book we both just read.

If you feel your translation has no part in my inquiry, then please do not waste mine, or your time, attempting to defend an alternative view. Maybe create a new topic, about how "Catholics/others are wrong", and stop wasting my time here.

Thanks

[POI]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #18]

So, which one is it? Are most Protestants ignorant or deceptive?

Does it matter?

Protestants (like most other groups) are not one single-minded entity, so I would suggest it is a mixture of both. Some are deceptive and/or ignorant, some are misled and/or ignorant (where ignorant simply means lacking knowledge).

Yes it does matter. It's safe to say that millions, who are brought up Protestant, are told they will burn in hell if (this or that).... Further, you openly admit that if you are a run-o-da-mill Protestant, you are either ignorant and/or deceptive.

I meant, does it matter to whether or not the doctrine is true or false?

And everyone in the world is ignorant about something. That wasn't a judgment from me. If people believe and/or teach something false, then there is ignorance and/or deception involved.

Your response still asserts that the average Protestant is either (ignorant and/or deceptive) about the Bible's translation for hell. Which one is it?

Asked and answered (see bold and underlined above).

Your bold/underlined response still references the typical Protestant as being ignorant. And yet, they can reference plenty of verses to support their translation, in direct opposition to yours Maybe it's you that is ignorant to translation?

But wait.. Maybe it still does. Could you reside with God, in bliss, if He 'disappeared' your closest loved ones for non-belief/non-repent?

No one gets 'disappeared' for non-belief.

Wrong. Reading the Bible, axiomatically, the unbeliever is 'condemned' for unbelief. (i.e.)

Mark 16:16 -- "16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Thus, is 'condemned' referring to (annihilation or eternal torment)?

Well its not referring to eternal torment. Might be referring to death. The default position (until Christ returns) is that everyone dies, and without Christ no one can receive a resurrection or have eternal life.
BUT...

There is also MERCY (which comes from love). So that non-Christians may also receive eternal life and entrance into the Kingdom, based upon their deeds to even a least one of Christ's brothers (as portrayed by the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable). And as Paul also explains, there are people who will be declared righteous because they show that the law (love) is written upon their hearts, based on them doing the things required by that law NATURALLY.

I'm sorry, but aside from the passage I already provided, other passages also indicate to the reader, that the unbeliever will not be saved. I trust I do not need to cite them?

See the link to the other thread (A Good God would not send a decent atheist to hell)

The Pharisees did not take mercy into account of many things, which was why they were quick to condemn. This is also why Christ said to them "Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice." (this is actually a quote of Hosea 6:6)

It's no different today in religion. Many people still don't understand that mercy (perhaps most often because the so-called 'leaders and teachers' don't understand it, and you can't teach what you don't know).

As well, not having my loved ones with me is also not something I need to worry about (previous post touches on the reasons for that).

So I'm not sure I can make it apply.

The beauty with the Bible is that you can pick and choose many passages, to taste. Meaning, you must merely also ignore the Verse I provided above, to fit your alternative 'conclusion'.

I don't need to ignore it, but I would not put it above all that my Lord has taught me. Would you be ignoring the following verses then?

"Do not judge and you will not be judged."
"Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."
"Forgive and you will be forgiven."


Peace again.

Again, many Verses tell the reader that the unbeliever will not be saved. In your case, this means annihilation. You expressed that you will be close to your family. How would you feel if the God you worship annihilates your closest family and friends?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #58]

I've already answered your questions, POI (including the last one you just asked), so I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

[POI]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #58]

I've already answered your questions, POI (including the last one you just asked), so I'm not sure what else you want me to say.

Well, you almost answered the fundamental question, but not really...

It's quite possible you currently have no idea as to what criteria God uses to judge his folks. Maybe he discards unbelievers, maybe He allows some unbelievers, maybe you have to perform a certain number of 'good deeds', who knows?

But it's highly possible that if you make it to heaven, that some of your loved ones will not. How would Heaven be a happy place, if you were to know that your closest loved ones were not with you ever again, because God dispatched/annihilated them? Could you truly and earnestly feel complete love for such a God?