Atheism and the afterlife

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #10]

Aside from which, 'perfect bliss' seems to rely on taking away everything that is 'You' and making one an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas without a 'you' even there to enjoy it. Personally I can't see that as much better as Oblivion, which i what atheism offers.

An Aside.
This type of information is exactly the kind of information which causes confusion about atheism/atheist position.

As a position, Atheism simply does not have "the option of oblivion" on offer, as it is simply a state of lacking belief in gods.
In that, there is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in an afterlife situation where the belief in gods can still be lacking.

For example, an atheist could believe in an afterlife experience which involves being an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas with a 'you' there to enjoy it.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

One could argue that is Is rational - as a 'position'. That is a conscious option based on a reason. Of course technical atheism (such as until you are old enough to be indoctrinated) is a natural -default, such as if you lived in a community that had no theism (if that is possible) or one's mind could not absorb it. And there could be irrational reasons such as a 'bad experience' or embracing an ism or ology that made the rejection of Theism a requirement. Which is why I coined (not that it ever got me any coin) the term 'Thinking Atheist' as distinct from those who didn't believe but not for any rational reason.

Yes.

As can be seen in my diagram, AGNOSTICISM takes the default position...as it is a position of ignorance ["I don't know"] so quite naturally "lacks belief in gods", whereas - through reasoning - Atheism has asked WHY there is this "lacks belief in gods" and come up with a BECAUSE.

[Tcg]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

One could argue that is Is rational - as a 'position'. That is a conscious option based on a reason. Of course technical atheism (such as until you are old enough to be indoctrinated) is a natural -default, such as if you lived in a community that had no theism (if that is possible) or one's mind could not absorb it. And there could be irrational reasons such as a 'bad experience' or embracing an ism or ology that made the rejection of Theism a requirement. Which is why I coined (not that it ever got me any coin) the term 'Thinking Atheist' as distinct from those who didn't believe but not for any rational reason.

Yes.

As can be seen in my diagram, AGNOSTICISM takes the default position...as it is a position of ignorance ["I don't know"] so quite naturally "lacks belief in gods", whereas - through reasoning - Atheism has asked WHY there is this "lacks belief in gods" and come up with a BECAUSE.

Agnosticism doesn't necessarily lead to "lacks belief in gods." This diagram displays the situation quite clearly. There are both agnostic theists and agnostic atheists.




Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]

Agnosticism doesn't necessarily lead to "lacks belief in gods."

Not what I was arguing.

Rather Agnosticism already lacks belief in Gods [as its default position]. Everything else can be said to branch off from the agnostic position into Atheist and Theist positions.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to William in post #13]

Your picture seem to imply that atheism is one possible evolution of agnosticism, yet here you affirm that agnosticism already lacks belief in Gods. That doesn't match the picture.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #13]

Your picture seem to imply that atheism is one possible evolution of agnosticism,

That is what I am saying, yes.

yet here you affirm that agnosticism already lacks belief in Gods.

Agnosticism starts off in that default position, yes. It is in branching out in the direction of either theism or atheism which changes the position.

That doesn't match the picture.

What picture?

If you are meaning my diagram, then in what way does it not fit?

If atheism branches from the position of Agnosticism, then it retains that aspect of agnosticism [lacking belief in gods] but builds upon that through developing reasons as to why it
should lack belief in gods, and therefore becomes either non-theist or anti theist, branches of atheism, rather than representing atheism, any more than agnosticism represents atheism.

and;

If theism branches from the position of Agnosticism, then it retains that aspect of agnosticism [lacking belief in gods] but builds upon that through developing reasons as to why it shouldn't lack belief in gods, and therefore becomes either theist [still lacking belief] or religious, [developing beliefs] branches of theism, rather than representing theism, any more than agnosticism represents theism.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to William in post #15]

You are saying atheism [lacking belief in gods because...] is a branch of/built up agnosticism, yet at the same time, say agnosticism already includes atheism [lacking belief in gods.] Why are there two kinds of atheisms?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]

Agnosticism doesn't necessarily lead to "lacks belief in gods."

Not what I was arguing.

Rather Agnosticism already lacks belief in Gods [as its default position]. Everything else can be said to branch off from the agnostic position into Atheist and Theist positions.

Not quite. Agnosticism is a Knowledge position (and nobody actually knows for sure, though some believe they do) and Theism or atheism are the two belief positions deriving from that. I used to say(quite recently, too ) that not knowing mandated non -belief until you do know. But of course we have to arrive at positions of investing credibility based on the information. And theists often do that as much as atheists do.

That's treating the Faith - issue as an aside, though it impacts the debate as in where the burden of proof lies.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]

Agnosticism is a Knowledge position...

They all could be said to be "knowledge" positions.

and Theism or atheism are the two belief positions deriving from that.

As my diagram shows...atheism and theism branch off of [derive from] the Agnostic position.

Re beliefs developed by either theism or atheism, burden of proof lies with whatever claims each have.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]

You are saying atheism [lacking belief in gods because...] is a branch of/built up agnosticism, yet at the same time, say agnosticism already includes atheism [lacking belief in gods.]

I am also including theism as lacking belief in gods.

Why are there two kinds of atheisms?

What do you mean by that?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]

Agnosticism is a Knowledge position...

They all could be said to be "knowledge" positions.

and Theism or atheism are the two belief positions deriving from that.

As my diagram shows...atheism and theism branch off of [derive from] the Agnostic position.

Re beliefs developed by either theism or atheism, burden of proof lies with whatever claims each have.

They do. But agnosticism is not a belief position. It is a knowledge position, and belief - or not (theism or atheism) are the two logically possible Belief -responses to 'not knowing' (spoiler - non belief to not knowing is the logical and rational response.

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]

You are saying atheism [lacking belief in gods because...] is a branch of/built up agnosticism, yet at the same time, say agnosticism already includes atheism [lacking belief in gods.]

I am also including theism as lacking belief in gods.

Why are there two kinds of atheisms?

What do you mean by that?

I don't see that. Perhaps that was to Tcg. Theism is by definition belief in a god or gods. Theuism means by definition belief in a god or gods (in the usual sense). Atheism is by definition, no belief in any gods. It's a technical point, but correct that atheism is not so much a belief position derived from the agnostic belief - position which is as silly as saying a love of Pizza is derived from loving Pizza. Ok I know...analogy to explain . Correctly it's the apple in a box - or not. We don't know - knowledge position - agnostic about the apple claim. Appletheist says they know there IS an Apple, when logically they can't. Appleatheist says they do not accept the claim that any fruit is in the box until it's proven. They don't claim there isn't any. e say we don't know whether the box is empty or not, let alone which kind of fruit. I know - analogy. 'So where dd the box come from if a huge invisible apple didn't produce the wood..?

Two kinds of atheisms? Yes I think I get you. Atheism is simply non -belief in any god claim, just as theism is belief in some sort of god -claim (i the Usual sense). Setting aside the Theist apologetic about saying 'there is no God' which we goddless do but there are caveats, the 'kinds' of atheists are about responses to the lack of belief, not different kinds of atheism. Some may decide to do nothing about it, including do nothing about going to church, but instead open a cold beer and watch sport on a Sunday. Others log on here and spend valuable hours hoping that a passing browser may look in and say '...hmmm...' before going off for a slanging match on Twitter. Same ism, different responses. Just as reading the Bible at home on Sunday or leaping about to Christian rock in a megachurch are both still Theism.