Atheism and the afterlife

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #10]

Aside from which, 'perfect bliss' seems to rely on taking away everything that is 'You' and making one an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas without a 'you' even there to enjoy it. Personally I can't see that as much better as Oblivion, which i what atheism offers.

An Aside.
This type of information is exactly the kind of information which causes confusion about atheism/atheist position.

As a position, Atheism simply does not have "the option of oblivion" on offer, as it is simply a state of lacking belief in gods.
In that, there is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in an afterlife situation where the belief in gods can still be lacking.

For example, an atheist could believe in an afterlife experience which involves being an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas with a 'you' there to enjoy it.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #10]

Aside from which, 'perfect bliss' seems to rely on taking away everything that is 'You' and making one an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas without a 'you' even there to enjoy it. Personally I can't see that as much better as Oblivion, which i what atheism offers.

An Aside.
This type of information is exactly the kind of information which causes confusion about atheism/atheist position.

As a position, Atheism simply does not have "the option of oblivion" on offer, as it is simply a state of lacking belief in gods.
In that, there is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in an afterlife situation where the belief in gods can still be lacking.

For example, an atheist could believe in an afterlife experience which involves being an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas with a 'you' there to enjoy it.

I agree. Atheism is simply a lack of beleif in any god -claim. There is no Dogma of afterlifes or anything else.

But the theist position in place knock on - respoinses to any question - such as what heaven could be like to even work results in hypotheses based (in my case) on what I hope is fair reasons. Such as I set out in my post. I might have clarified perhaps that atheists would probably opt for 'dead - that's it' as a first hypothesis, but any kind of afterlife - hypothesis would dismiss heaven and hell and any one religion anding out passes and it being a religionless natural thing. Not an atheist Doctrine or Dogma as we have none, but a reasonable first option for what isn't a likely claim anyway.

To add a bit more to your interesting point, an atheist can actually believe in other supernatural claims not related to a god -claim. Theists or anti -atheists often suppose that One kind of supernatural claim not being believes means that ANY kind of supernatural claim must be rejected. In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

[JoeyKnothead]

An Aside.
This type of information is exactly the kind of information which causes confusion about atheism/atheist position.

As a position, Atheism simply does not have "the option of oblivion" on offer, as it is simply a state of lacking belief in gods.
In that, there is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in an afterlife situation where the belief in gods can still be lacking.

For example, an atheist could believe in an afterlife experience which involves being an immortal, eternal ball or orgasmic gas with a 'you' there to enjoy it.

I've been bouncing around ideas from your previous post, and this'n here really shines the light for me.

When I, an atheist do finally die, will my consciousness live on? While I can argue it won't, can I say that with unfettered certitude?

Which brings me back to your previous post...

What if my consciousness "lives on"? I like how you explained that if so, it would be from my perspective. From what I observe and think, and know.

That really hit for me, cause I just happen to have seen that one episode of Saint Elsewhere back in about 1582, when the guy there went to Heaven. And God looked just like him. "Created in our image". I hate dramas, but for some reason I watched the whole bit of it. I thought it was a neat take.

So now here you come along, and you posit the idea that maybe consciousness lives on, though by logic, such an "afterlife" would be predicated on my own memories and notions. How could it be any other way?

So yeah, this atheist now looks forward to the idea that if I die, my consciousness won't. And that I'll just exist to look down pretty Lisa's shirt over and over again. (I didn't do it on purpose, but if I did, I still wouldn't be shamed for the me having done it.)

So now, this atheist can't tell if it's Lisa who's god, or them twins she totes around. Maybe I'm God, who sees the world my way?

Dang it man you've solved nothing

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #13]

Dang it man you've solved nothing

I think that as the point Joey.

If you are in a position to solve things for yourself, you might come to the realization that the idea you "just exist to look down pretty Lisa's shirt over and over again" might be false, so you might also come to the conclusion that doing so would be no different than worshiping any other image theists might spend their eternity doing...and change your reality to better suit that realization - thus discover that it is only you who can solve anything...and perhaps find less mundane things to focus your attention upon...

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #13]

Dang it man you've solved nothing

I think that as the point Joey.

If you are in a position to solve things for yourself, you might come to the realization that the idea you "just exist to look down pretty Lisa's shirt over and over again" might be false, so you might also come to the conclusion that doing so would be no different than worshiping any other image theists might spend their eternity doing...and change your reality to better suit that realization - thus discover that it is only you who can solve anything...and perhaps find less mundane things to focus your attention upon...

Naw now, tiddies are a fine thing to look upon.

But I hear ya. What would I really want my eternity to be? Hugging on those I love. Lamenting my wrongs. Proud of what I did good. Running crost Big Creek with Winston, turtle in his mouth, dropping it just fore I jump across. Always from the left. Pink Floyd in Atlanta, '87.

I think you're absolutely correct, if our consciousness lives on. Heaven is to the individual. In my Heaven, I'll see you there. You'll be plucking them strings, and I'll be trying to keep up.

And if it ain't? Well I can live in a comfortable today where I think it is.

Trust me friend, though I might fun around, I learn me the lessons you tell, best I can.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #13]

Dang it man you've solved nothing

I think that as the point Joey.

If you are in a position to solve things for yourself, you might come to the realization that the idea you "just exist to look down pretty Lisa's shirt over and over again" might be false, so you might also come to the conclusion that doing so would be no different than worshiping any other image theists might spend their eternity doing...and change your reality to better suit that realization - thus discover that it is only you who can solve anything...and perhaps find less mundane things to focus your attention upon...

Naw now, tiddies are a fine thing to look upon.

But I hear ya. What would I really want my eternity to be? Hugging on those I love. Lamenting my wrongs. Proud of what I did good. Running crost Big Creek with Winston, turtle in his mouth, dropping it just fore I jump across. Always from the left. Pink Floyd in Atlanta, '87.

I think you're absolutely correct, if our consciousness lives on. Heaven is to the individual. In my Heaven, I'll see you there. You'll be plucking them strings, and I'll be trying to keep up.

And if it ain't? Well I can live in a comfortable today where I think it is.

Trust me friend, though I might fun around, I learn me the lessons you tell, best I can.

It is always a satisfying feeling when people 'get' what one is saying. We get each other. No swords to cross. No words to battle with.

[Miles]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

Actually, if one bothered to ask, the atheist often does add a "because," and that "because" is: there's a lack of sufficient evidence, which I find completely rational. Do you believe things that lack sufficient evidence for your belief? Perhaps you do.


.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

One could argue that is Is rational - as a 'position'. That is a conscious option based on a reason. Of course technical atheism (such as until you are old enough to be indoctrinated) is a natural -default, such as if you lived in a community that had no theism (if that is possible) or one's mind could not absorb it. And there could be irrational reasons such as a 'bad experience' or embracing an ism or ology that made the rejection of Theism a requirement. Which is why I coined (not that it ever got me any coin) the term 'Thinking Atheist' as distinct from those who didn't believe but not for any rational reason.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #12]

In fact atheists, tending to be ratiobnalists, would not, generally, credit supernatural claims, but the definition does not in fact exclude them as it does any god -belief.

Again, the lack of belief in gods is neither rational or irrational re Atheism as a position. The position does not add a 'because' to the 'lacking belief in gods' as that comes later [branches away] through non-theism and anti-theism.

Actually, if one bothered to ask, the atheist often does add a "because," and that "because" is: there's a lack of sufficient evidence, which I find completely rational. Do you believe things that lack sufficient evidence for your belief? Perhaps you do.


.

I don't need to bother to "ask an atheist" because I can see for myself.

Once an Agnostic asks the question as to why there is a lack of belief in gods, the move from that question, branches out as per my diagram.

The answer as to "why" an Agnostic became an Atheist, "because" there's a lack of sufficient evidence, which can be seen as completely rational is why the Agnostic chose to become an Atheist.

The further the Atheist goes with getting answers from the premise "The are no Gods which exist" [therefore - "I have good reason to lack belief in gods."] the more branching out from Atheism occurs...into non-theism and anti-theism....