Does Genesis 1 describe the Universe?

[Tcg]

Some claim that Genesis 1 describes the creation of the universe and yet an examination of the text reveals that the author doesn't have any concept of planets other than the earth. Beyond that, the author doesn't even understand that the earth is a planet. This is an example of Ancient Hebrew concept of cosmology:




Why do some claim that Genesis 1 describes the universe when the author shows no knowledge of our solar system much less the universe?


Tcg

[brunumb]

Just read what it says. Don't force-fit later ideas or popular Christian notions like omnipotence, which Gen 1 doesn't mention.

May I suggest you take your own advice. Your "unpacking" of Genesis 1 involved far more than just reading what it says.

[theophile]

[Replying to brunumb in post #121]

Both of your responses lack any substance. Give details. What did I say that is wrong? What does Gen 1 say? You have no argument.

[POI]

I don't think that is any reason to not accept its advice on how to order our lives and the world around us.

I keep re-reading Genesis 1 and for the life of me cannot see how one could extract "its advice on how to order our lives and the world around us" from it. It simply reads as an account of creation with an exclamation that humans are the "top of the tree" as they no doubt regarded themselves when they came up with the story.

Ya gotta read it with the holy ghost, and the belief, and quit reading it all devil like.

I kinda lost my Bible-glasses too, so that doesn't help either. But seriously, could someone please explain exactly how I am missing the so-called life-lessons allegedly contained in Genesis 1.

Just read what it says. Don't force-fit later ideas or popular Christian notions like omnipotence, which Gen 1 doesn't mention.

Also, you may call this "twisting" or "whitewashing" or whatever else, but my strong advice when reading the bible is to focus on the little things. The bible's real message, in my opinion, is always found in its subtleties... It's almost the literary / hermeneutical version of Paul's message in 1 Corinthians 1:27: "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong..." i.e., It is the small, unnoticed words / statements in the bible that overturn and confound the 'obvious' readings / interpretations...

For example, we could read Gen 1 (as popularly done) as the revelation of an all-powerful God-King creating the heavens and the earth ex nihilo in a grand display of power and might. But there are little indications in the text that disrupt such a reading if you stop to think about them. Things like, in my prior post, God's own reference to Godself as an "us."

It throws a bit of a wrench into the works, right? Into this concept of God as some omnipotent old man in the sky? Now sure, later Christians will claim Gen 1's foresight of the Trinity or whatever else, but none of that feels right, right? It all feels like a force-fit onto Gen 1 and should, by my suggestion, push us to look closer at what is really going on.

That is my advice when reading the bible. Read what it says. Follow the little leads. That is where treasure lies.

So what do you do when you come across assertions, which are testable, which do not appear to align with reality/discovery? Are they dismissed as metaphor/allegory? Or, do you think everything physically expressed in Gen. 1 are all literal and factual?

[Difflugia]

Just read what it says. Don't force-fit later ideas or popular Christian notions like omnipotence, which Gen 1 doesn't mention.

May I suggest you take your own advice. Your "unpacking" of Genesis 1 involved far more than just reading what it says.

Both of your responses lack any substance. Give details. What did I say that is wrong? What does Gen 1 say? You have no argument.

Doubling down with a straw man? You weren't accused of being wrong, but were accused of reading an unusual personal theology back into the text, then showing the temerity to tell the rest of us to "just read what it says." You did that in spades.

[theophile]

Just read what it says. Don't force-fit later ideas or popular Christian notions like omnipotence, which Gen 1 doesn't mention.

May I suggest you take your own advice. Your "unpacking" of Genesis 1 involved far more than just reading what it says.

Both of your responses lack any substance. Give details. What did I say that is wrong? What does Gen 1 say? You have no argument.

Doubling down with a straw man? You weren't accused of being wrong, but were accused of reading an unusual personal theology back into the text, then showing the temerity to tell the rest of us to "just read what it says." You did that in spades.

When I said "just read what it says" I meant it genuinely. And it is what I genuinely try to do. I've just been focusing on small details that usually go unnoticed and then yes, I have been trying to open up what they mean. There are certain implications that I think we are justified to explore. That is what I also meant when I also said to follow the little leads. The small textual facts that throw a wrench into the works of popular interpretations. Things like:

1. The uncreated deep / waters in Gen 1:2.
2. The calling mode of God's speech / action throughout ('Let there be')
3. God's self-referral as an 'us' in Gen 1:26.
4. The mandate given to humankind to fill the earth and subdue it in Gen 1:28.

None of that is made up. And I think all of it is important to the question posed before and that started this off, namely, what wisdom Gen 1 provides beyond a physical description of how it all began?

I believe someone, brumumb?, claimed there was nothing in Gen 1 on how we should order our lives and the world around us. The fourth item in that list alone shows otherwise (no unusual personal theology required).

But apologies for my surliness. I can get that way.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #125]

1. The uncreated deep / waters in Gen 1:2.

This may be referring to what is mentioned in scientific circles as "The Quantum Field". The QF may have once been inert, in that it was one thing before it was many things.

2. The calling mode of God's speech / action throughout ('Let there be')

This has everything to do with why I created the Thread - The Effect of Sound and The Universe to examine any evidence of this "Voice of God" hypothesis.

3. God's self-referral as an 'us' in Gen 1:26.

Could be referring to the 'parts' which make up the 'whole' in that the inert QF is the 'Whole" and the things 'sound' created by interacting with the QF are the 'parts' and therein, the parts that make up the whole are acknowledged as 'reflections' of the mind behind the voice that made the sound...even if that means the process branches into 'many voices' all working congruently in order to bring about said creative reflection.

4. The mandate given to humankind to fill the earth and subdue it in Gen 1:28.

Apparently the mandate has be achieved. Unless of course, the mandate has been misunderstood by man at this date.

[TRANSPONDER]

Just read what it says. Don't force-fit later ideas or popular Christian notions like omnipotence, which Gen 1 doesn't mention.

May I suggest you take your own advice. Your "unpacking" of Genesis 1 involved far more than just reading what it says.

Both of your responses lack any substance. Give details. What did I say that is wrong? What does Gen 1 say? You have no argument.

Doubling down with a straw man? You weren't accused of being wrong, but were accused of reading an unusual personal theology back into the text, then showing the temerity to tell the rest of us to "just read what it says." You did that in spades.

When I said "just read what it says" I meant it genuinely. And it is what I genuinely try to do. I've just been focusing on small details that usually go unnoticed and then yes, I have been trying to open up what they mean. There are certain implications that I think we are justified to explore. That is what I also meant when I also said to follow the little leads. The small textual facts that throw a wrench into the works of popular interpretations. Things like:

1. The uncreated deep / waters in Gen 1:2.
2. The calling mode of God's speech / action throughout ('Let there be')
3. God's self-referral as an 'us' in Gen 1:26.
4. The mandate given to humankind to fill the earth and subdue it in Gen 1:28.

None of that is made up. And I think all of it is important to the question posed before and that started this off, namely, what wisdom Gen 1 provides beyond a physical description of how it all began?

I believe someone, brumumb?, claimed there was nothing in Gen 1 on how we should order our lives and the world around us. The fourth item in that list alone shows otherwise (no unusual personal theology required).

But apologies for my surliness. I can get that way.

No problem. We don't mind a bit of Bear What is a prob is explaining things to those who don't listen. You can take you readings into the poetic or philosophic meanings of Genesis as mythology to the Literature ...damn' what's the word... no conference...not Council... you know, it's where middle aged Lodge members get together once a year to get drunk with professional ladies....

Anyway, the only thing that concerns us here is whether Life, the Universe and Everything came to be as it says in Genesis. And the answer is No. Not unless one is a science -denier.

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #125]

4. The mandate given to humankind to fill the earth and subdue it in Gen 1:28.

Apparently the mandate has be achieved. Unless of course, the mandate has been misunderstood by man at this date.

Has it? Looks to me like we're emptying the world. I suppose arguable, but I don't think Gen 1 is just talking human population explosion when it says 'fill the earth.' But rather diversity of life, which has been contracting under our tenure.

But even on the human expansion dimension I don't think we're succeeding. Sure, raw numbers look good. But women are still oppressed in much of the world. Not to mention other human expressions (different sexualities, races, genders).

[Miles]

[Replying to theophile in post #125]

4. The mandate given to humankind to fill the earth and subdue it in Gen 1:28.

Apparently the mandate has be achieved. Unless of course, the mandate has been misunderstood by man at this date.

Has it? Looks to me like we're emptying the world. I suppose arguable, but I don't think Gen 1 is just talking human population explosion when it says 'fill the earth.' But rather diversity of life, which has been contracting under our tenure.

Considering

"Scientists have estimated that there are around 8.7 million species of plants and animals in existence. However, only around 1.2 million species have been identified and described so far, most of which are insects. This means that millions of other organisms remain a complete mystery.
source

I doubt anyone can tell if the diversity (number of species) is increasing or decreasing.



.

[Tcg]

[Replying to theophile in post #125]

1. The uncreated deep / waters in Gen 1:2.

This may be referring to what is mentioned in scientific circles as "The Quantum Field". The QF may have once been inert, in that it was one thing before it was many things.

This doesn't add up unless one suggests that "The Quantum Field" poured out onto the earth flooding it.

Gen 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

There nothing mysterious about the water mentioned in Genesis 1. The water is water.


Tcg