Why do people try to prove faith?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

A popular thread here is, if the resurrection is if it's fact or faith based. A lot of thinking and word play has gone into several dozen pages trying to prove it's factual (BTWs...it's not factual, just in case you're wonderin').
There's been a lot of mental gymnastics done trying to prove it is. In regards to critical thinking (the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment), there seems that YES, critical thinking skills are required. After all, it takes a lot of effort to believe it at all!
But, outside of trying to prove something is factual, does faith (complete trust or confidence in someone or something; strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof), itself, faith doesn't seem to require critical thinking skills.

It seems faith only requires a few of things:
people with the need (for various reasons) to believe;
something to believe in &
a method to pontificate said belief.

For discussion:
Why do people feel the need to prove their belief (aka faith) is factual at all? Why can't they just be content with accepting 'Yeah, I believe in this by faith and that's good enough!'
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:36 pm
Then you misunderstand the scripture you supplied. It says nothing about proving anything as factual. The word 'fact' was no were in the supplied scripture.
Doesn't matter and I dont care: you only asked why . I told you why. I answered the question in the OP.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #12

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:10 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:24 pm Why do people feel the need to prove their belief (aka faith) is factual at all?
I can only speak for myself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for me its because I believe it is my Christian responsibility to do so. In short, my reading (my understanding) of the scriptures compels me to do so.
Interesting. Not many people would equate belief

be·lief
/bəˈlēf/
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs

1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

with

fact
/fakt/
noun: fact; plural noun: facts

1. a thing that is known or proved to be true.




Image



.
Last edited by Miles on Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #13

Post by Difflugia »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:10 pmI can only speak for myself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for me its because I believe it is my Christian responsibility to do so. In short, my reading (my understanding) of the scriptures compels me to do so.
Nope
That says nothing about trying to prove a belief as factual.
This thread is not about defending one's faith (I'm not sure many would object to one defending their belief and ability to believe in it) but trying to prove something of faith as fact
I can just about count the number of times I agree with JehovahsWitness on zero hands, but what exactly are you challenging here? The verse quoted is literally the verse that the term "apologetics" comes from. Here's the verse from otseng's Transliteral New Testament (emphasis mine):
But hagiazō the kyrios theos in your kardia: and be hetoimos always to an apologia to every man that aiteō you a logos of the elpis that is in you with praÿtēs and phobos:
My reading of that verse is exactly what you're asking about.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #14

Post by William »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
Why do people feel the need to prove their belief (aka faith) is factual at all? Why can't they just be content with accepting 'Yeah, I believe in this by faith and that's good enough!'
In order to prove ones faith, it is enough to prove it to ones self.

Even after that, it is not necessary to try and prove it to anyone else.

[Once it is proven, it no longer is a matter of faith/aka belief]

The best one can do is tell others what you did [if they are interested] in order to offer evidence as to what one put faith in, was worthwhile doing, as it proved itself to be true, if indeed what you did to prove the faith, is repeatable by others.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #15

Post by TRANSPONDER »

That simply translates to me as 'Having Faith yourself (and never mind evidence) is reason enough to believe'. To convince others, you must try to persuade them that counting the hits and ignoring the misses is evidence of God's dibbling in their affairs.

Being here :D we godless bastards feel obliged to point out such fallacious methods of thinking, and recommend applying the logic and evidence based critical thinking rather than Faith and fiddling data to fit in with it, as a method of having the best chance of arriving at true beliefs.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #16

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:38 pm
nobspeople wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:36 pm
Then you misunderstand the scripture you supplied. It says nothing about proving anything as factual. The word 'fact' was no were in the supplied scripture.
Doesn't matter and I dont care: you only asked why . I told you why. I answered the question in the OP.
You should care that you misread your supplied quote, I'd suspect.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #17

Post by nobspeople »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:32 pm
nobspeople wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:22 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:10 pmI can only speak for myself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for me its because I believe it is my Christian responsibility to do so. In short, my reading (my understanding) of the scriptures compels me to do so.
Nope
That says nothing about trying to prove a belief as factual.
This thread is not about defending one's faith (I'm not sure many would object to one defending their belief and ability to believe in it) but trying to prove something of faith as fact
I can just about count the number of times I agree with JehovahsWitness on zero hands, but what exactly are you challenging here? The verse quoted is literally the verse that the term "apologetics" comes from. Here's the verse from otseng's Transliteral New Testament (emphasis mine):
But hagiazō the kyrios theos in your kardia: and be hetoimos always to an apologia to every man that aiteō you a logos of the elpis that is in you with praÿtēs and phobos:
My reading of that verse is exactly what you're asking about.

The supplied quote says " always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have " There's nothing in that quote that says anything about proving a belief to be factual. It says defend the reason for the hope you have, not make a defense before everyone who demands of you a fact for the hope you have.
If I asked 'what's the reason why you belief your faith is a fact' that's one thing. I did not. I asked why one wants to show their faith is a fact, not reason for hope.
As I said earlier, I don't think people would have much of an issue if someone defends their faith (which is what the verse is saying). The issue is when people try to prove their faith true as a fact (which the verse is not saying).
In other words, read what's there not what one wants to be there; show me a verse that says "you must defend your hope and show it to be true". To date, I haven't seen any verse showing that.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #18

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to William in post #14]
In order to prove ones faith, it is enough to prove it to ones self.
That should be all that matters to the individual. Yet, 70 some pages later, they're still arguing about how it's factual to others.
Even after that, it is not necessary to try and prove it to anyone else.

[Once it is proven, it no longer is a matter of faith/aka belief]
Exactly. Yet the continuation of such activities shows, to me, the lack of individual faith, the fear of being wrong and the need to feel better about one's self
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:08 am I asked why one wants to show their faith is a fact, not reason for hope.
So you are asking why I have a particular desire to do something. If I have that desire because I believe I can see a Pink flamingo dansing the tango at the end of my garden every time I see a boiled egg - that is still the answer to your question. I do not see a request to convinced anyone else my desire is justifiable or even defendable; you simply asked WHY people feel the need to do something.

If I had replied "because the bible mentions dried figs", has the question not still been answered? If I said "... because the bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem" has the question not been answered? If YOU see no link between the reason and my desire, the question has STILL nevertheless been answered, so long as it is MY reason. In fact, any answer which starts with "because..." is an answer; the most you can do is say is you don't like it!

I answered your question honestly, and yet, from what I can see ...no "thank you".
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Why do people try to prove faith?

Post #20

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I think we get you. :D You explain how faith (your faith) works for you. (I use Faith specifically to apply to religious faith, which is faith which can otherwise be applied to Atlantis, Flying Saucer pilots built the pyramids and the Chinese made the ballot paper out of bamboo, but Not that the rock formation at Durupinar is the Ark or the pile of boulders with herdsmens' grafitti is the Altar of The Golden Calf because that i to do with the Bible and so is Faith. You learn these distinctions at atheist indoctrination classes.

Faith that (e.g) your car will start and that your house will not fall down and that your wife loves you is based on experience and knowledge of the mechanics and is belief (on reasonable facts) with the understanding that you could be hit by lightning as you take the dog for a walk, your house could fall down, your car might not start or your wife might be knocking off the neighbour, in that order of improbability. It is not belief without compelling reason and so 'faith' is a term best reserved for unreasonable beliefs and Faith specifically for those associated with religion. Faith associated with Christianity specifically is also called 'Truth' (as distinct from truth which is what (on all reason and evidence) is fact. This is why Pilate gets no answer to 'What is Truth?' because John knows that it would give the game away to have Jesus reply: "the 'Truth' is Faith in Me".

All clear now? Thought not :P So while we understand how you use the term 'faith' and you should understand that we understand that it means that you believe whatever you like, or rather whatever your Mentors have told you to believe, and you should understand that we understand that what you believe matters to nobody but you and what matters is what on reason and evidence (even if arguing it from the Bible) is what will matter to those reading your posts.

Have a lovely O:) weekend.

Post Reply