Re: Fitting Bible literalism into history

[Athetotheist]

I originally posted this in Random Ramblings and it was suggested that I come up with a question to start a discussion. So here it is:


2348 BCE (Ussher calculation)---A global flood wipes out every human being on earth except Noah and his closest relatives.

2345 BCE (three years after the flood)---Teti becomes pharoah of Egypt, beginning that country's sixth dynasty.

2334 BCE (fourteen years after the flood)---Sargon I conquers southern Mesopotamia and founds the Akkadian Empire.

So for a question: Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood? And what does giving up a literal interpretation of Genesis mean for interpreting the rest of the Bible?

[TRANSPONDER]

....Another is to tr to have the Flood about the date of the Pyramids. Some claimed slat water marks in the great pyramid. I haven't seen that substantiated. Another effort was to take an Egyptian creation - myth and try to relate it to the Noachian Flood. That didn't work any better than trying to wangle the Flood into Chinese tradition, which of course doesn't have a global flood legend.

The claim you posted (with a wink, noted ) of course begs the question: show that the dating is wrong, otherwise it's just denial.

I think those who make the claim of the dates, should prove them correct. I have not seen any good proof for them, which is why I think they are just baseless belief.

But, that claim about water marks and also that it appears that the great pyramid and other structures were not finished really. That may indicate that there was some great catastrophe.

The various dates (three main ones - Palaeontological/Geological - that is fossils dated by rocks, Antiquity dated by pottery sequences and C14 dates and historical often based on king -lists and historical events like the battle of Actium and the Consular lists) are generally good. No major shake -ups. The attempt to disprove radiocarbon dating failed, a debate on the nativity on my previous board where the dating of herod's death came into debate was soundly settled by reference to the Roman dating and Dio Cassius giving year by year events. Pottery sequences may seem a bit fey but they are an excellent relative dating method and the odd inscription, king lits and C14 dating support gives a decent pre -Roman dating method.

It is rather for the theist to come up with some reasons NOT to credit them than demand they be proved. That has been adequately done. It is all of a piece with the Theists demanding that Evolution be proved when the evidence is already as much as a court of law would need.

I have never seen this 'salt water' claim substantiated and I have never heard any archaeologist suggest that any of the great pyramids were not completed. Where did you hear that one? Nor does any Archaeology anywhere indicate any 'great catastrophe' before the bronze age collapse of the 11th c. BC. I think that you have to substantiate this case.

[JehovahsWitness]

"Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood?"


Tcg

What do you mean "there should be gaps from the flood"?

[Athetotheist]

"Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood?"


Tcg

What do you mean "there should be gaps from the flood"?

Actually, that one's mine. And the question's meaning is clear; if there was a great world-destroying flood, vast civilizations wouldn't have been recording their histories in the middle of it.

[TRANSPONDER]

"Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood?"


Tcg

What do you mean "there should be gaps from the flood"?

Actually, that one's mine. And the question's meaning is clear; if there was a great world-destroying flood, vast civilizations wouldn't have been recording their histories in the middle of it.

Yes. The ones that get referenced are Egypt and China which were apparently recording history before, during and after the supposed time of the flood which I'm never sure about - Something like 3,000 B.C +/- 1,000 years each way, which is a wabble - date that would have C 14 thrown out as unreliable if it couldn't do any better. I heard a story that the first missionaries to China had their argument rejected by the Ching emperor on the grounds that the Chinese histories record no global flood, and their historians ought to know.

[1213]

...
It is rather for the theist to come up with some reasons NOT to credit them than demand they be proved. ...

It is interesting how people require proof for some things, but for things they like to believe, no proof is necessary.

...I have never heard any archaeologist suggest that any of the great pyramids were not completed. Where did you hear that one?...

Surprising, if you don’t know, when I think it is commonly said also in many Egypt related tv documents. Here are some examples:

...Here we are going to explore four such pyramids their construction remained unfinished due to one or other reason....
https://www.historyandmythology.com/202 ... knows.html

It appears that The Great Pyramid was never finished since the top is flat, and not pointed, as it should be. It has a truncated summit which is coarse and uneven and measures about 30 square feet. Most pyramids were crowned with a top-stone that completed their structure. This pyramid does not currently have one and it appears that it never did. One of the earliest references to the missing top-stone (or capstone) is from Diodorus Siculus (60 BC)...
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... yramid.htm

…Researchers estimate that it would have taken 100 people 3 years to carve the Great Sphinx out of a single mass of limestone. But there’s some evidence that these workers may have suddenly quit before fully finishing the sphinx and temple complex, such as partially quarried bedrock and remnants of a workman’s lunch and tool kit….
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-egypt/the-sphinx

[Hawkins]

I originally posted this in Random Ramblings and it was suggested that I come up with a question to start a discussion. So here it is:


2348 BCE (Ussher calculation)---A global flood wipes out every human being on earth except Noah and his closest relatives.

2345 BCE (three years after the flood)---Teti becomes pharoah of Egypt, beginning that country's sixth dynasty.

2334 BCE (fourteen years after the flood)---Sargon I conquers southern Mesopotamia and founds the Akkadian Empire.

So for a question: Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood? And what does giving up a literal interpretation of Genesis mean for interpreting the rest of the Bible?

Wrong premises. Nowhere in the Bible says that genealogy can be used of year calculation. Ancient humans recorded genealogy differently in the different times due to the fact that they don't have papers for writing. They may have to use stones and woods etc. to mark down info. Israel is moving ethnic group. They at some point may have to convey info verbally. That's why even part of the Mosaic Law is convey verbally and known as the Oral Law.

The accounts of biblical genealogy are to stand a human witness on that Jesus is from David and subsequently Adam. That's it, no less and no more!

[TRANSPONDER]

...
It is rather for the theist to come up with some reasons NOT to credit them than demand they be proved. ...

It is interesting how people require proof for some things, but for things they like to believe, no proof is necessary.

...I have never heard any archaeologist suggest that any of the great pyramids were not completed. Where did you hear that one?...

Surprising, if you don’t know, when I think it is commonly said also in many Egypt related tv documents. Here are some examples:

...Here we are going to explore four such pyramids their construction remained unfinished due to one or other reason....
https://www.historyandmythology.com/202 ... knows.html

It appears that The Great Pyramid was never finished since the top is flat, and not pointed, as it should be. It has a truncated summit which is coarse and uneven and measures about 30 square feet. Most pyramids were crowned with a top-stone that completed their structure. This pyramid does not currently have one and it appears that it never did. One of the earliest references to the missing top-stone (or capstone) is from Diodorus Siculus (60 BC)...
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... yramid.htm

…Researchers estimate that it would have taken 100 people 3 years to carve the Great Sphinx out of a single mass of limestone. But there’s some evidence that these workers may have suddenly quit before fully finishing the sphinx and temple complex, such as partially quarried bedrock and remnants of a workman’s lunch and tool kit….
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-egypt/the-sphinx

None of those are the great Pyramid or one of the others. Sure, some Pyramids were unfinished but at various times (reigns) because the king was deposed or ran out of money, but not all at the same time because of a flood.

I couldn't access one site, nor did I want to access the other, but quarry work going on is irrelevant. Quarries were being worked long after the time of pyramids but obelisks were still being made. And a lunch and tool kit left behind (even in the Great Pyramid) wouldn't be evidence for a Flood. I'll have a look myself, but I'd say you have nothing here as you seem to have some idea that all the archaeology of Egypt is dated to the time of the Great Pyramid.

[TRANSPONDER]

I have seen one or two such claims but Wiki (yes, I know ) has this The Unfinished Pyramid presented in the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States
The Layer Pyramid, dating to the 3rd Dynasty of Egypt c. 2630 BC, possibly unfinished due to the death of the king.
The Pyramid of Neferefre, dating to the 5th Dynasty c. 2460 BC, unfinished due to the premature death of pharaoh Neferefre.
The Unfinished Northern Pyramid of Zawyet el'Aryan, dating either to the 3rd or 4th Dynasty of Egypt.
The Southern South Saqqara pyramid dating to the 13th Dynasty (18th century BC) likely unfinished due to the death of the king.

No mention of the pyramid of Cheops (the Great Pyramid) I'll have a look.

[TRANSPONDER]

Ok, This:
Throughout history the majority of the smooth white limestone casing was removed, which lowered the pyramid's height to the present 138.5 metres (454.4 ft). What is seen today is the underlying core structure. The base was measured to be about 230.3 metres (755.6 ft) square, giving a volume of roughly 2.6 million cubic metres (92 million cubic feet), which includes an internal hillock.[4]

The dimensions of the pyramid were 280 royal cubits (146.7 m; 481.4 ft) high, a base length of 440 cubits (230.6 m; 756.4 ft), with a seked of 5+
...
There are three known chambers inside the Great Pyramid. The lowest was cut into the bedrock, upon which the pyramid was built, but remained unfinished. (Wiki)

So the structure was finished but the white limestone other covering was removed. One of the Pyramids still has the top of the outer white limestone shell.

Now the lowest internal chamber does appear unfinished, but to ascribe it to a global flood seems a bit of a stretch. For the pyramid itself to be not finished would imply some problem but to leave the lower chamber uncompleted when it was the upper chamber that was the one actually used is open to other interpretations.

This is very thin evidence for a global flood.

[Tcg]

"Can Bible literalists explain why historical records don't have gaps in them where there should be gaps from the flood?"


Tcg

What do you mean "there should be gaps from the flood"?

If there were literally a global flood that wiped out all human life except 8, there would be numerous civilizations which would have come to an abrupt end. History would reflect that if it happened. It doesn't.


Tcg