Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

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Tcg
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Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

Genesis 6:3 reads:
Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
And yet after the flood in Genesis 11 we find these individuals reportedly lived well past 120 years:

Shem: 600 years

Arpachshad: 438 years

Shelah: 433 years

Eber: 464 years

Peleg: 239 years

Reu: 239 years

Serug: 230 years

Nahor: 148 years

Terah: 205 years

How can one account for the reports of such long lives after God's proclamation in Genesis 6?


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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #31

Post by 1213 »

Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:50 am
1213 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:36 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:26 pm ...
It's a universal statement involving "man" referring to all mankind. There are no qualifiers such as "evil", "wicked", or "those that didn't find favor."
...
I think Gen. 6:8 should be read as qualifier to it. The Gen. 6:1-8 makes the whole argument and by cutting it from where you need to cut it, is in my opinion dishonest and distorts the meaning of it.
Why should 6:8 be considered a qualifier?
Because it is added right after the Gen. 6:1-7 and expands and clarifies the conditions/reasons.

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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #32

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]
How can one account for the reports of such long lives after God's proclamation in Genesis 6?
Purposeful lies
Accidental lies
Miscalculating
Poor editing
Poor translating
Super magic cloud man granting long lives for some people for some period of time, then just stopping that activity
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #33

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:19 pm
tam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:29 pm Peace to you,

I have not read through the rest of the thread, so I apologize if this has already been brought up:

Tcg wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 pm
tam wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:17 pm
Instead of all mankind coming to an end in 120 years, though, God made an exception for Noah and his family (due to Noah's faith), and mankind would continue through them. (And though it is not written, had other actual men/women exercised faith - as Noah did - and come to the ark, they too could have been survived.)



Peace again to you!
This last bit doesn't match what is written in the story. Even before building the ark God tells Noah exactly who would be boarding the ark and it is limited to Noah, his wife, his three sons and there wives. There is no provision for any others.


Tcg
Might not have been necessary to mention it if God knew only Noah had that faith. But it is just a few paragraphs describing what would have been a huge event.


But we do have an example from Christ, and example that He (the Truth and Image of God) gave us, even if there were no written provisions made for the Flood.

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 [Jesus] did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then [Jesus] said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


He was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel (and she was not one of those), but because of her faith, he granted her request.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
This is a totally different situation. God didn't make any absolute statements beforehand about what would happen to this woman.


But Christ did. Christ said that He came only for the lost sheep of Israel (which was why He was not responding to the woman). But He then made an exception for the woman because of her faith.

He did in the case of the flood and at least according to the story it played out exactly as God said it would.
If no one else had faith, there may not have been a need to mention it. That doesn't mean an exception would not have been made for a person who DID have (and demonstrate) that faith.
Another problem is the use of a much later tale written presumable by one of Jesus' followers and suggesting it would apply to an ancient Hebrew God.
I suppose it depends upon what God one is speaking of. At the least, it shows a precedent (even if the account in the NT is coming after the flood). Because God - the God and Father of Christ - is as Christ reveals Him to be. So that we can know the Ancient (of Days, see Daniel 7) only by knowing His Son.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #34

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:04 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:50 am
1213 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:36 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:26 pm ...
It's a universal statement involving "man" referring to all mankind. There are no qualifiers such as "evil", "wicked", or "those that didn't find favor."
...
I think Gen. 6:8 should be read as qualifier to it. The Gen. 6:1-8 makes the whole argument and by cutting it from where you need to cut it, is in my opinion dishonest and distorts the meaning of it.
Why should 6:8 be considered a qualifier?
Because it is added right after the Gen. 6:1-7 and expands and clarifies the conditions/reasons.
You're trying to support your argument that the 120 years refers to limits placed on evil men before the flood. Mentioning Noah is not a qualifier which is applied to the universal term "man" in the phrase under consideration. Beyond that, the claimed lifespans from Genesis 5 (before the flood) destroy your argument.


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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #35

Post by Difflugia »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:57 am
How can one account for the reports of such long lives after God's proclamation in Genesis 6?
Purposeful lies
Accidental lies
Miscalculating
Poor editing
Poor translating
Super magic cloud man granting long lives for some people for some period of time, then just stopping that activity
This would probably fit under "poor editing." Richard Elliott Friedman's footnote for that verse from The Bible with Sources Revealed says:
YHWH sets the maximum age of humans at 120 here in J; but many persons live longer than this (9:29; 11:10–26,32—which come from a separate source, the Book of Records). In J, no one lives longer than 120 years, and it culminates with the report that Moses lives to the maximum of 120 (Deut 34:7).
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #36

Post by 1213 »

Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:29 pm ...
You're trying to support your argument that the 120 years refers to limits placed on evil men before the flood....
Sorry that I was not clear enough. I think it is about all people, unless the person finds favor in God's eyes.

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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #37

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:49 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:29 pm ...
You're trying to support your argument that the 120 years refers to limits placed on evil men before the flood....
Sorry that I was not clear enough. I think it is about all people, unless the person finds favor in God's eyes.
We're back to the same problem. The statement is made universally about "man" meaning all mankind. There are no exceptions.


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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #38

Post by Tcg »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:40 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:57 am
How can one account for the reports of such long lives after God's proclamation in Genesis 6?
Purposeful lies
Accidental lies
Miscalculating
Poor editing
Poor translating
Super magic cloud man granting long lives for some people for some period of time, then just stopping that activity
This would probably fit under "poor editing." Richard Elliott Friedman's footnote for that verse from The Bible with Sources Revealed says:
YHWH sets the maximum age of humans at 120 here in J; but many persons live longer than this (9:29; 11:10–26,32—which come from a separate source, the Book of Records). In J, no one lives longer than 120 years, and it culminates with the report that Moses lives to the maximum of 120 (Deut 34:7).
It's fascinating that J hit on an age that seems close to the oldest ages of humans in recent history. Of course, even the age of 120 for Moses should be taken with a grain of salt especially considering the claims about his eyesight and fitness:
Deuteronomy 34:7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
Kinda makes you wonder why he died. 8-)

Tcg
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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #39

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:37 am
Fair enough; I was just addressing the question whether anybody could have been saved since God had announced his intentions ("I will") to destroy everyone but Noah and his family. Biblically (ie according to the bible canon) the answers is yes. (evidence provided).

If you or anyone is uninterested or believe since it is a hypothetical question it is irrelevant, they can just ignore it and of course not attempt to argue against it.

JW
There is no reason to argue against it as the flood myth provides no evidence for a claim that a ride on Noah's Ark was an open invitation. God declares his brutal intentions and they play out (according to the myth) exactly as God established. There is no direction from God that Noah should be prepared to add an addition to the fabled ark in case a few more want to board. It's not as if the idea of a slide was yet feasible:

Image


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Re: Another Issue With the Flood Story - 120 years.

Post #40

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to Tcg in post #39]

I have been watching "Secrets of the Zoo" lately and when I think about what they have to cope with and compare it with Noah's floating zoo I simply burst out laughing. That there are still people who believe that the biblical flood story is historical boggles my mind. It's rather sad really.


gr.
Last edited by brunumb on Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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