Different Gods of Creation?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Different Gods of Creation?

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.
Genesis 2 contains a shift in the name of God described as the creator of heaven and earth. This shift can be easily seen in the "Names of God (NOG)" version of the English bible:
Genesis 2:1 Heaven and earth and everything in them were finished. 2 By the seventh day Elohim had finished the work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

4 This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when Yahweh Elohim made earth and heaven.
Elohim is somewhat of a generic name for God and as it is plural, it is the same word used to refer to "gods" or "deities." Yahweh represents the personal name of the Hebrew God and is used in place of the tetragrammaton (YHWH). This can be overlooked in other English versions although some try to indicate this name with the capitalized "LORD." Even with that aid the word may be mistaken as a title as in "Lord Baltimore."

Perhaps the first three verses here should have been included with Genesis 1 as they conclude that version of the creation tale. Genesis 2:4 begins the second version of the creation account.

What does this shift indicate?

Could it represent the shift to a different author?

Does it indicate the inclusion of two conflicting accounts identifying two different Gods responsible for creation?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #11

Post by Tcg »

Difflugia wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:23 pm
This actually applies to other books of the Bible. Job, for example, has an interesting mix of the Tetragrammaton ("Yahweh"), singular El or Eloah, and plural Elohim. Elohim is universally translated as "God," but it often in Hebrew it usually works better as a plural, often having a definite article ("the gods"). Considering that the context of Job has "the satan" appearing before Yahweh as part of the council of gods, reading verses like 1:8-9 like the folowing might be closer to the original intent:
Yahweh said to the adversary, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears gods, and turns away from evil.”

Then the adversary answered Yahweh, and said, “Does Job fear gods for nothing?
The stories in Genesis, though, are generally split up based on a general contradiction with Exodus 6:2:
God spoke to Moses, and said to him, “I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shaddai; but by my name Yahweh I was not known to them.
Since some stories include the patriarchs referring to God as "Yahweh," the author or authors of those must not know that part of the Exodus tradition. Stories by authors that do know the tradition sometimes include an omniscient narrator that calls God Yahweh, but the characters never do. Genesis 17:1 is an example of the latter:
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am El Shaddai. Walk before me and be blameless.
A few years ago a member posted this paragraph from Wikipedia:
Yahweh[a] was the national god of ancient Israel and Judah.[3] His origins reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age.[4] In the oldest biblical literature, he is a storm-and-warrior deity[5] who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies;[6] at that time the Israelites worshipped him alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal;[7] in later centuries, El and Yahweh became conflated and El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone,[8] and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwist religion.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
If I understood their argument correctly, they were suggesting that the use of Elohim in Genesis 1 indicates that the Israelites developed their idea of God based on the Canaanite God El or perhaps that Elohim was an offspring of El. Is there any evidence to support such a conclusion?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

Tcg wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:06 pmIf I understood their argument correctly, they were suggesting that the use of Elohim in Genesis 1 indicates that the Israelites developed their idea of God based on the Canaanite God El or perhaps that Elohim was an offspring of El. Is there any evidence to support such a conclusion?
There are scholars that argue that. A Handbook of Gods and Goddesses of the Near East by Douglas Frayne and Johanna Stuckey conflates El and Elohim:
In the Hebrew Bible, El appears 230 times, most of the uses meaning “god.” However, passages in Genesis especially make clear that some instances of the word were naming a god. Thus, as Mark Smith says, the “original god of Israel was El” (1990: 7). Further, the word Israel is theophoric, for it contains El’s name. It was he who was the god Elohim (plural of Eloah) of Genesis 1–3.
My personal feeling is that by the time Genesis 1-3 was written, Elohim had already passed through being the generic plural for "gods," then being an epithet for any named God (i.e. the way a Hindu might refer to Vishnu as "God" in English), then being a third personal name for the already conflated Yahweh/El.

It turns out that it's hard to know which came first, whether El got his name from the generic Hebrew word for god or vice versa. From The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith:
The name of the god El is the same as the word for “god” in many West Semitic languages. This fact might be taken as evidence that as head of the West Semitic pantheon, El was regarded as the pre-eminent god (or, perhaps, divinity “incarnate”). The best guess for the etymology of both the word “god” and the name of El has been *’y/wl, “to be strong,” but other proposals have been made. The noun may be a “primitive” biradical form meaning “chief” or “god.” The name of El occurs clearly first in personal names attested at Ebla, and then Mari and Amarna. In contrast, the evidence in other Mesopotamian personal names is contested. These cases may involve the generic term “god,” not the proper name of El. Because of the lack of evidence for El’s cult in Mesopotamia, the second view may be preferable.
Don't get me wrong. There is a ton of evidence, including within the Bible itself, that Yahweh and El were originally separate deities. I just don't think that Genesis 1 referring to Elohim is part of it. By the time Genesis was referring to El as Elohim, the connection that the two shared was an etymological fossil. The reason I find Job interesting is because it uses Elohim as both an unambiguous polythestic plural and a personal name. When it's a plural noun, it takes plural adjectives and verbs, but as a personal name, they're singular. That tells me that either Job was written during a period when both uses were common or was modified after its original composition.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #13

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Tcg in post #1]

What we have found so far is that the different names used for God in Genesis 1 versus Genesis 2 probably don't point to different Gods of creation, but rather to different authors of the two creation stories. Two authors who are reporting from two very different traditions.

What does this say about the integrity of Genesis?

What different stories do the two accounts teach?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #14

Post by Difflugia »

Tcg wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:28 amWhat different stories do the two accounts teach?
I mentioned it in the list above, but I highly recommend Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible?

With the caveat that he places the P source earlier in history than most scholars (for reasons that became clear when he wrote The Exodus), it's an extremely lucid and readable explanation of the Old Testament's history of composition and redaction. As a side benefit, it also helps to put the books and personalities of the Old Testament in the context of the various periods of Israel's history.

Here are a few specific differences between the sources. There may be disagreements between scholars, but for clarity, I'm presenting the general consensus without other qualification (i.e. "J is earliest" rather than "most scholars think that J is earliest").
  • J (Jahwist (German) or Jehovist) and E (Eloist) are roughly contemporary. J was written first and E slightly later. Before the other sources were integrated, J and E were combined by the first redactor. In places, the two are difficult to separate and are sometimes referred to as JE.
  • D (Deuteronomist) is the compiler of Deuteronomy and the author of most of it. The D source was contemporary with King Josiah and the "book of the Law" referred to in 2 Kings 22:8 ("Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, 'I have found the book of the law in Yahweh’s house.'") The "Deuteronomistic History" consisting of Judges, Samuel, and Kings is predominantly a collection of older stories collected, redacted, and embellished into a history of Israel, the later part (beginning roughly with 2 Kings 22) being written as it happened.
  • P (the Priestly source) was exilic or post-exilic. The prophet Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian Exile and his concerns align closely with those of the P source.
  • J represents the creation narrative and patriarchal tradition of Judah in the south, E represents that of Israel in the north. Friedman suggests remembering them by thinking of J for Judah and E for Ephraim. I still do that.
  • J is the only source not obviously written by a member of the priesthood. It describes a personal god that individuals may speak with and worship without the intervention of angels or priests. Genesis 2 describes J's god as walking in the garden and speaking face-to-face with Adam and Eve.
  • J and E allow sacrifices at any "high place" (bamah), including homemade altars. According to D, that practice stopped when Solomon built the first Temple, where all sacrifice was to henceforth take place. P makes the requirement retroactive by creating the Tabernacle as the "Temple before the Temple." In P, every legitimate sacrifice is conducted either at the Tabernacle or the Temple.
An interesting specific story that shows the two sources is Joseph's brothers selling him to the Ishmaelite merchants, effecting his transport to Egypt. The story is related in Genesis 37:18-36. If you read the story carefully, it's a mess. Most people don't notice because they skim it, but there are several important inconsistencies. Are the traders Midianites or Ishmaelites? Was it Reuben or Judah that prevented Joseph's death? Who pulled Joseph out of the pit? The inconsistencies disappear once one realizes that it's two stories that are interwoven. Whoever did this apparently thought that the words themselves were sacred and so couldn't be changed, rearranged, or removed. It was apparently OK to interleave them, though, even if the result changed some details about the story.

Read the story first straight through, paying close attention to what's going on and in particular, to whom each pronoun refers. Then read the red and blue stories separately.
18 They saw him afar off, and before he came near to them, they conspired against him to kill him. 19 They said to one another, “Behold, this dreamer comes. 20 Come now therefore, and let’s kill him, and cast him into one of the pits, and we will say, ‘An evil animal has devoured him.’ We will see what will become of his dreams.”

21 Reuben heard it, and delivered him out of their hand, and said, “Let’s not take his life.” 22 Reuben said to them, “Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit that is in the wilderness, but lay no hand on him”—that he might deliver him out of their hand, to restore him to his father. 23 When Joseph came to his brothers, they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the tunic of many colors that was on him; 24 and they took him, and threw him into the pit. The pit was empty. There was no water in it.

25 They sat down to eat bread, and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing spices and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, “What profit is it if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? 27 Come, and let’s sell him to the Ishmaelites, and not let our hand be on him; for he is our brother, our flesh.” His brothers listened to him. 28 Midianites who were merchants passed by, and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. The merchants brought Joseph into Egypt.

29 Reuben returned to the pit, and saw that Joseph wasn’t in the pit; and he tore his clothes. 30 He returned to his brothers, and said, “The child is no more; and I, where will I go?” 31 They took Joseph’s tunic, and killed a male goat, and dipped the tunic in the blood. 32 They took the tunic of many colors, and they brought it to their father, and said, “We have found this. Examine it, now, and see if it is your son’s tunic or not.”

33 He recognized it, and said, “It is my son’s tunic. An evil animal has devoured him. Joseph is without doubt torn in pieces.” 34 Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his waist, and mourned for his son many days. 35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. He said, “For I will go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” His father wept for him. 36 The Midianites sold him into Egypt to Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh’s, the captain of the guard.
Once the stories are separated, the first (red) story has the brothers plotting to kill Joseph, but Judah convinces the brothers that they should sell him instead. An Ishmaelite caravan comes by and the brothers sell Joseph for 20 silvers, then fake his death. The second (blue) is the brothers planning to kill Joseph, but Reuben secretly decides to rescue him. While the brothers were eating, Midianites wandered by, pulled Joseph out of the pit, then took him to Egypt. When Reuben came back and found Joseph gone, he thought Joseph had actually been killed.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #15

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:29 pm .
Genesis 2 contains a shift in the name of God described as the creator of heaven and earth. This shift can be easily seen in the "Names of God (NOG)" version of the English bible:
Genesis 2:1 Heaven and earth and everything in them were finished. 2 By the seventh day Elohim had finished the work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

4 This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when Yahweh Elohim made earth and heaven.
Elohim is somewhat of a generic name for God and as it is plural, it is the same word used to refer to "gods" or "deities." Yahweh represents the personal name of the Hebrew God and is used in place of the tetragrammaton (YHWH). This can be overlooked in other English versions although some try to indicate this name with the capitalized "LORD." Even with that aid the word may be mistaken as a title as in "Lord Baltimore."

Perhaps the first three verses here should have been included with Genesis 1 as they conclude that version of the creation tale. Genesis 2:4 begins the second version of the creation account.

What does this shift indicate?

Could it represent the shift to a different author?

Does it indicate the inclusion of two conflicting accounts identifying two different Gods responsible for creation?


Tcg
When I first became a christian, I asked (my church leader/pastor) this type of question here and in a couple other parts of the bible. To my surprise, I was told there were 'others' there at the same time. So, in this instance, there's more than one 'being/thing/god/deity/whatever' there. This made little sense to me as why is there more than one 'god' when there's only supposed to be one, real god?
I'm not saying this is correct - other responses provided here seem to make a lot more sense - simply relying my experience to show how much difference in thinking and understanding between religious groups under the same 'god umbrella'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8488
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #16

Post by Tcg »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:37 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:29 pm .
Genesis 2 contains a shift in the name of God described as the creator of heaven and earth. This shift can be easily seen in the "Names of God (NOG)" version of the English bible:
Genesis 2:1 Heaven and earth and everything in them were finished. 2 By the seventh day Elohim had finished the work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

4 This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when Yahweh Elohim made earth and heaven.
Elohim is somewhat of a generic name for God and as it is plural, it is the same word used to refer to "gods" or "deities." Yahweh represents the personal name of the Hebrew God and is used in place of the tetragrammaton (YHWH). This can be overlooked in other English versions although some try to indicate this name with the capitalized "LORD." Even with that aid the word may be mistaken as a title as in "Lord Baltimore."

Perhaps the first three verses here should have been included with Genesis 1 as they conclude that version of the creation tale. Genesis 2:4 begins the second version of the creation account.

What does this shift indicate?

Could it represent the shift to a different author?

Does it indicate the inclusion of two conflicting accounts identifying two different Gods responsible for creation?


Tcg
When I first became a christian, I asked (my church leader/pastor) this type of question here and in a couple other parts of the bible. To my surprise, I was told there were 'others' there at the same time. So, in this instance, there's more than one 'being/thing/god/deity/whatever' there. This made little sense to me as why is there more than one 'god' when there's only supposed to be one, real god?
I'm not saying this is correct - other responses provided here seem to make a lot more sense - simply relying my experience to show how much difference in thinking and understanding between religious groups under the same 'god umbrella'.
At this point I'm leaning to the idea that it is the result of different authors/editors relying on different sources. If that is the case, I find it interesting that in the editing process, resolving the difference was not viewed as important.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Different Gods of Creation?

Post #17

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:10 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:37 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:29 pm .
Genesis 2 contains a shift in the name of God described as the creator of heaven and earth. This shift can be easily seen in the "Names of God (NOG)" version of the English bible:
Genesis 2:1 Heaven and earth and everything in them were finished. 2 By the seventh day Elohim had finished the work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

4 This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when Yahweh Elohim made earth and heaven.
Elohim is somewhat of a generic name for God and as it is plural, it is the same word used to refer to "gods" or "deities." Yahweh represents the personal name of the Hebrew God and is used in place of the tetragrammaton (YHWH). This can be overlooked in other English versions although some try to indicate this name with the capitalized "LORD." Even with that aid the word may be mistaken as a title as in "Lord Baltimore."

Perhaps the first three verses here should have been included with Genesis 1 as they conclude that version of the creation tale. Genesis 2:4 begins the second version of the creation account.

What does this shift indicate?

Could it represent the shift to a different author?

Does it indicate the inclusion of two conflicting accounts identifying two different Gods responsible for creation?


Tcg
When I first became a christian, I asked (my church leader/pastor) this type of question here and in a couple other parts of the bible. To my surprise, I was told there were 'others' there at the same time. So, in this instance, there's more than one 'being/thing/god/deity/whatever' there. This made little sense to me as why is there more than one 'god' when there's only supposed to be one, real god?
I'm not saying this is correct - other responses provided here seem to make a lot more sense - simply relying my experience to show how much difference in thinking and understanding between religious groups under the same 'god umbrella'.
At this point I'm leaning to the idea that it is the result of different authors/editors relying on different sources. If that is the case, I find it interesting that in the editing process, resolving the difference was not viewed as important.


Tcg
The 'more than one author and or editors' makes more sense. To your point of not resolving the differences, I too find it interesting. I can't believe that in all the years this went 'unnoticed'. Thus, there must be a reason.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Post Reply