Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?
Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Moderator: Moderators
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3522
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1618 times
- Been thanked: 1082 times
Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #2Many christians would say something like 'humans are more important than animals' meaning, it seems, the animal suffering isn't something with which we should be concern ourselves - at least that's what I've been told. Not sure the biblical references for this, but might have something to do with having 'dominion over' animals.POI wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:54 pm Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3522
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1618 times
- Been thanked: 1082 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #3Yeah, I too have heard similar arguments. Which then provokes the following comments/questions...nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:11 pmMany christians would say something like 'humans are more important than animals' meaning, it seems, the animal suffering isn't something with which we should be concern ourselves - at least that's what I've been told. Not sure the biblical references for this, but might have something to do with having 'dominion over' animals.POI wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:54 pm Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?
1. Should a Christian ever feel any empathy at all, if they were to see an animal writhing in pain in the wild?
2. Maybe Christians should never attempt to save wild animals, when they see them trapped in some precarious predicament, via from a presented natural disaster.
3. A Christian should also not be concerned if their own animal is even fed, sheltered, etc, as they are not even aware. Feeding them less, for example, will save more money to give to the church
4. If the Christian's animal is sick or injured, don't take it to the vet; as they are not even aware of their own pain/suffering.
5. And no, I do not believe the Bible mentions much of anything at all about animals. Thus, I doubt they are to experience any afterlife. Many are born, experience vast trauma, and die a painful death. Why?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #4I smile when I read this because I've asked almost identical questions in the past and got a mixed bag of answers from 'yes they're god's creatures' to 'no because god cares more about us then them (then they'd quote the sparrow verse, of which I thankfully forget)'.POI wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:30 pmYeah, I too have heard similar arguments. Which then provokes the following comments/questions...nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:11 pmMany christians would say something like 'humans are more important than animals' meaning, it seems, the animal suffering isn't something with which we should be concern ourselves - at least that's what I've been told. Not sure the biblical references for this, but might have something to do with having 'dominion over' animals.POI wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:54 pm Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....
Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?
1. Should a Christian ever feel any empathy at all, if they were to see an animal writhing in pain in the wild?
2. Maybe Christians should never attempt to save wild animals, when they see them trapped in some precarious predicament, via from a presented natural disaster.
3. A Christian should also not be concerned if their own animal is even fed, sheltered, etc, as they are not even aware. Feeding them less, for example, will save more money to give to the church
4. If the Christian's animal is sick or injured, don't take it to the vet; as they are not even aware of their own pain/suffering.
5. And no, I do not believe the Bible mentions much of anything at all about animals. Thus, I doubt they are to experience any afterlife. Many are born, experience vast trauma, and die a painful death. Why?
There, like all things 'christian', seems to be a myriad of responses to this, and other similar, questions (odd that they all claim to worship the same being but have varying degrees of different answers).
I'll be interested to see how christians respond. But, like several times in the past, there won't be much response. We shall see!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
-
OnlinePurple Knight
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3513
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
- Has thanked: 1139 times
- Been thanked: 733 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #515:12. Ah, there it is, the old "animals are just meat robots and don't really suffer" BS.
People have been saying this for ages regardless of any religiousness being mixed up in the argument. Sadly, though there is increasing opposition to it, the idea that animals don't have the same emotional range or just react to stimuli and don't experience anything humans do is still the leading doctrine in animal behaviour and related relig- *cough* I mean, sciences.
Absolute, unadulterated rubbish. Higher animals such as birds and mammals (with possible exceptions of specialised grazers) have every bit of pain awareness and emotional range we do.
People have been saying this for ages regardless of any religiousness being mixed up in the argument. Sadly, though there is increasing opposition to it, the idea that animals don't have the same emotional range or just react to stimuli and don't experience anything humans do is still the leading doctrine in animal behaviour and related relig- *cough* I mean, sciences.
Absolute, unadulterated rubbish. Higher animals such as birds and mammals (with possible exceptions of specialised grazers) have every bit of pain awareness and emotional range we do.
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3522
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1618 times
- Been thanked: 1082 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #6Well, it will be interesting to see if/when any Christians should happen respond?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:22 pm 15:12. Ah, there it is, the old "animals are just meat robots and don't really suffer" BS.
People have been saying this for ages regardless of any religiousness being mixed up in the argument. Sadly, though there is increasing opposition to it, the idea that animals don't have the same emotional range or just react to stimuli and don't experience anything humans do is still the leading doctrine in animal behaviour and related relig- *cough* I mean, sciences.
Absolute, unadulterated rubbish. Higher animals such as birds and mammals (with possible exceptions of specialised grazers) have every bit of pain awareness and emotional range we do.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8178
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 957 times
- Been thanked: 3549 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #7Aside the argument I've seen at times that 'When Adam fell he brought all Creation down with him' which means it's all sinful, which will do as an alternative to 'evolution is not nice, but it is true', human empathy is an interesting concept, especially when we recognise it not only in ourselves for animals but amongst animals themselves. And yet, we are beginning to understand that animal co -operation (the basis of our own ethics) is an evolutionary survival trait and no less so if we get a release of Dopamine to make us opt for the 'Good'. It is perhaps one of the less likeable effects of evolutionary survival -instinct that we get a release of...Something when we are driven to ignore morality and do evil, individually and collectively, in the interests of a Higher and greater Calling. Name your own.
- theophile
- Guru
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
- Has thanked: 76 times
- Been thanked: 126 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #8The question is a fair one for Christians who insist on God's omnipotence (which is most of them). But it isn't fair for Christians who take greater inspiration from the bible, and recognize the limitations of God's power.
Also, hard to see how animal suffering is consistent with, say, Jesus' message of love. Or God's creation of animals in Gen 1 and declaring them 'good.'
If there is animal suffering under our dominion (per Gen 1) then it isn't God's fault or 'allowance' but ours.
- Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #9Jesus' message of love? Like this one:
Jesus endorses suffering for humans that is equal to or worse than the fate of many animals. The hippie peace loving Jesus is a fantasy and we haven't even looked at Revelation yet.Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8178
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 957 times
- Been thanked: 3549 times
Re: Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?
Post #10That's the problem of Evil - which is this topic after all. Man is not to blame for natural disasters nor to blame for the ruthless way nature deals with animals, of which 90% of those who ever lived had gone extinct before man ever chipped a flint tool.theophile wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:01 pmThe question is a fair one for Christians who insist on God's omnipotence (which is most of them). But it isn't fair for Christians who take greater inspiration from the bible, and recognize the limitations of God's power.
Also, hard to see how animal suffering is consistent with, say, Jesus' message of love. Or God's creation of animals in Gen 1 and declaring them 'good.'
If there is animal suffering under our dominion (per Gen 1) then it isn't God's fault or 'allowance' but ours.
So, no, it is not at all man's fault before at least humans began changing the world, but the fact is that animals compete with each other and natural conditions, in a brutal way and it cannot all be blamed on men.
So either God could put this right, but won't, or he would but can't.
How do Christians answer that?