Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

Biblically speaking, for the same reason he allows human suffering, namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden.




FURTHER READING : Does God Care About Animals?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... t-Animals/



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JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... ANIMAL CRUELTY

[JoeyKnothead]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

Biblically speaking, for the same reason he allows human suffering, namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden.

And here I thought the pretty thing bringing up stuff from a year ago was some grudge holding.

I reckon that whole forgiveness deal was just God aflapping his gums.

[nobspeople]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

Biblically speaking, for the same reason he allows human suffering, namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden.




FURTHER READING : Does God Care About Animals?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... t-Animals/



RELATED POSTS

Why did animals have to suffer during the flood of Noahs day?
viewtopic.php?p=1027924#p1027924

Was Jesus kind to animals?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p992555

Does the bible teach God will burn up all the animals ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p964790

Will there be pets in heaven?
viewtopic.php?p=1027090#p1027090

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

.THE PURPOSE OF LIFE, ANIMALS and ... CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

What, exactly, does "namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden." mean? And how does animal suffering relate to this? And not biblically speaking, but you speaking - your opinion. The bible can influence your POV, but say it in your own words from your perspective, if possible.

[JehovahsWitness]

not biblically speaking, but you speaking - your opinion. The bible can influence your POV, but say it in your own words from your perspective, if possible.

I do not believe I can possibly have an opinion about the mind of God except for my beliefs in divine revelation in the bible. I choose not to hold baseless opinions, and since this is a debating forum will always provide the basis for my conclusions, which is and always will be the bible.

I will express myself any way I see fit, in words of my choosing as long as that be within forum guidelines. If I choose to quote someone elses words, I will be sure to use quotation marks, otherwise you can assume they are "[my] own words from [my] perspective".

I will quote scripture any time and as frequently as I wish. It can be understood I am doing so to provide information as to what I believe to be true and not an argument that it is . Feel free to ignore my posts if they contain anything that is not of your liking,


Have a most excellent day,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

I do not believe I can possibly have an opinion about the mind of God except for my beliefs in divine revelation in the bible?

Should that have ended with a "?" ? As I said, the bible can influence your POV, but say it in your own words from your perspective, if possible.

I choose not to hold baseless opinions,

If you think a personal opinion is baseless simply because it's not biblical vomit, then we have nothing else to speak about. I have to contend your POV is simply biblical verses and thus, not worth my time.

At any rate, thanks for your attempt. Have a great godless week.

[JehovahsWitness]

Should that have ended with a "?" ?

No, the question mark was a typo (duly corrected), sorry, my bad.

What, exactly, does "namely to settle the issues raised in the garden of Eden." mean?

An issue can be thought of as "an important subject or topic". The "issues raised in the garden of Eden" refers to the fondamental questions the Edenic events as depicted in the bible canon raised. The resolution of these questions would effect all intelligent creatures and those under their charge *


* According to scripture the animal kingdom were placed under the care of humans.

JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I don't see how this is much different than 'the problem of evil' or of suffering in general. The problem only exists if one starts with the assumption that this world is exactly as God created it. But that is not true.

This is the world AFTER Adam subjected it (and all life in it) to Death. So this is the world AFTER sin (error, which includes disease) and death entered INTO it, through Adam. The world and all in it had been given to Adam to govern, to 'husband' (as in 'husbandry', to care for). Adam then turned around and subjected this world and all in it (including his own offspring), to Death.

That affects everything in this world, including animals.

Most of us did not know the world before sin and death entered into it. We have only known the world after sin and death entered into it. But this world is not the Kingdom of God. Christ has not yet returned and established His Kingdom over the earth. We will know the difference then.


**

(Just as a side point: as for animals not being aware of their own pain, they might not DWELL on it (like we often do), but of course they feel their pain. It doesn't even make sense to me to suggest otherwise. My Boston was SO tough, had so many problems with his eyes, even ended up losing one - it ruptured during the night after surgery and he yelped and trembled afterward next to me; he had surgery to remove it that morning, and then he was back to his crazy foolish self a few days later. But some animals can go into a depression. Just because they bounce back and adapt fast doesn't mean they did not feel their pain. The fact that they can become depressed in the first place should be a hint that they are indeed aware of their pain. Maybe they don't think about it like we do our own pain, but they do react to it - be it emotional or physical pain. **As a second side point, flat-faced breeds are not natural. Man breeds that trait into them, but there are problems with breathing and eyes that come with. Those are just the problems I know about from having a Boston, there are probably others as well.)



Peace again to you.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #17]

The problem only exists if one starts with the assumption that this world is exactly as God created it. But that is not true.

That's debatable. But that aside, let's say that's true This is the world god allowed simply by being god and all knowing. Making excuses for such a worthless being doesn't change that fact.

But let's say humanity ruined the world
Why does god continue to allow innocent life to suffer because of something another one of its creations caused? That's not loving. That's uncaring and aloofness, at the very best. Masochistic at the very least. Worthy of worship and veneration? Hardly.

Man breeds that trait into them, but there are problems (with breathing and eyes) that come with. Those are just the problems I know about from having a Boston, there are probably others as well.

This can be said of any animal that's bred by humanity from the beginning of domestication. This is a man made problem over a few species, not a worldwide problem over all species. While the two issues may be comparable, the scope isn't. But what is comparable is the fact that god continues to let animals suffer when it's entirely possible to put an end to it.

But, god's capable of ending all suffering, if commonly said traits are to be believed - even within humanity. Yet it doesn't.
So it either it 1) doesn't care, 2) enjoys the suffering, or 3) isn't there to do anything about it. Pick one that fits your chosen agenda.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #17]

The problem only exists if one starts with the assumption that this world is exactly as God created it. But that is not true.

That's debatable. But that aside, let's say that's true This is the world god allowed simply by being god and all knowing.

Indeed. Being God and all knowing also means that He knows what is yet to come, and what is needed (and when) to bring His plan to fruition, and to put a permanent end to suffering and death. It means that He has already seen the end. Our view is limited; His view is not.

Making excuses for such a worthless being doesn't change that fact.

Stating a truth is not making excuses, even if some wish to ignore (and/or do not accept) that truth.

Man breeds that trait into them, but there are problems (with breathing and eyes) that come with. Those are just the problems I know about from having a Boston, there are probably others as well.

This can be said of any animal that's bred by humanity from the beginning of domestication. This is a man made problem over a few species, not a worldwide problem over all species. While the two issues may be comparable, the scope isn't. But what is comparable is the fact that god continues to let animals suffer when it's entirely possible to put an end to it.

But, god's capable of ending all suffering, if commonly said traits are to be believed - even within humanity. Yet it doesn't.
So it either it 1) doesn't care, 2) enjoys the suffering, or 3) isn't there to do anything about it. Pick one that fits your chosen agenda.

I believe all of those fit only the agenda of those who wish to convince others that God does not exist.

None of them are correct though.

God does care, does not enjoy the suffering, and has done something about it. But on His timeline, which HE knows is needed so as to bring about the promises that He has made, and to protect life (including eternal life).



Peace again.

[TRANSPONDER]

It's still the Problem of Evil and made worse because animals were never to blame, but God allowed Adam to bring all creation down with him. The Problem here is that the explanation is inadequate. In God's place I would simply have said 'I will not allow your sin to ruin my creation'. And to say 'We don't know the mind of God' is again inadequate as the thought sneaks in 'I could do better than this'.

We are being offered excuses, not explanation and the conclusion that Some at least (as I read from deconversions) will come to is that the problem of Evil is one of the Biggest deconverters (along with the Bible being full of plot -holes).

Now Tam and JW do their very best to give an explanation, but the Problem remains; it is an explanation or an attempt at an excuse and one that isn't too convincing? The individual has to decide.

To take it further, God supposedly dishes out various punishments. Adam is banished from Eden. The snake's legs are taken away. But Eden and all in it is punished when it did nothing wrong. Adam's dominion over animals still stands, apparently; and God says (so the explanation goes') You are having Life taken from you, and you and all your descendants will be punished for your disobedience. And you are all wicked and sinful, but mind you treat those animals kindly'. Does that make any sense? Never mind that does not address the problem of the animals becoming sinful, though they did nothing wrong. Come on, Tam's evasion that God wanted man to treat animals kindly does not address the problem that God allowed the animals to Fall along with Adam. Really? And to play the 'God knows best' card is the ultimate evasion, not even an excuse.

The better explanation is of course that this is the way evolution works and God, the Bible and Theist apologetics do not cut it as an explanation.