Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #19]

Indeed. Being God and all knowing also means that He knows what is yet to come, and what is needed (and when) to bring His plan to fruition, and to put a permanent end to suffering and death. It means that He has already seen the end. Our view is limited; His view is not.

Therefore, it's OK for god to allow suffering. If god is as it's said, he could change 'the end' to the effect where suffering is not needed. Overlooking that is excusing the actions of god to fit your chosen lifestyle choice and agenda. If you're fine with that, that is, of course, perfectly OK - I suppose. For you anyway. Others, however, except more from such a being that is god.

Stating a truth is not making excuses, even if some wish to ignore (and/or do not accept) that truth.

Stating your opinion of faith as fact isn't truth. It's an opinion. An opinion that's held to excuse your sock of a god. But again, if you're OK with that, so be it.

I believe all of those fit only the agenda of those who wish to convince others that God does not exist.

Remove the bolded word and same is said of your faith. And here we are.

1) God does care, 2) does not enjoy the suffering, and 3) has done something about it.

1) He allowed his creation to fall into sin when he could have prevented it. Care indeed
2) He's allowing it when he could prevent it and still have the outcome he so desperately wished. Yet he doesn't do that. That's not caring (at least for the suffering ones - though I suppose it could be seen as 'caring' for its own agenda and ego).

But on His timeline,

So it would seem. We're all slaves to its timeline, ego tripping needs and its wants. What can we do about it? Maybe satan was right to tell humanity the truth god tried (not so hard) to hide? Hmmm....

which HE knows is needed so as to bring about the promises that He has made,

That's a lot of ME ME ME ME ME in reference to god. But yes, he cares about us. Sure.

and to protect life (including eternal life).

Suffering protects life? That's a new evil thought attributed to such a loving sack that is god. I guess anything is OK so long as god saves face, huh?
And (I know I'm going to regret asking this) how does eternal life need protecting? From what?

Sickening.

[theophile]

Also, hard to see how animal suffering is consistent with, say, Jesus' message of love. Or God's creation of animals in Gen 1 and declaring them 'good.'

Jesus' message of love? Like this one:

Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus endorses suffering for humans that is equal to or worse than the fate of many animals. The hippie peace loving Jesus is a fantasy and we haven't even looked at Revelation yet.


Tcg

I do believe I made the point that animal suffering is ON US. So Jesus' endorsement of human suffering from this angle is okay with me! i.e., any human being that insists on cruelty to animals (and other depravities) should be thrown into the "fiery furnace."

And to my other point, how is that not consistent with love? A loving parent can and should protect their children, no? Including the eradication of intractably evil human beings.

[theophile]

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering?

The question is a fair one for Christians who insist on God's omnipotence (which is most of them). But it isn't fair for Christians who take greater inspiration from the bible, and recognize the limitations of God's power.

Also, hard to see how animal suffering is consistent with, say, Jesus' message of love. Or God's creation of animals in Gen 1 and declaring them 'good.'

If there is animal suffering under our dominion (per Gen 1) then it isn't God's fault or 'allowance' but ours.

That's the problem of Evil - which is this topic after all. Man is not to blame for natural disasters nor to blame for the ruthless way nature deals with animals, of which 90% of those who ever lived had gone extinct before man ever chipped a flint tool.

So, no, it is not at all man's fault before at least humans began changing the world, but the fact is that animals compete with each other and natural conditions, in a brutal way and it cannot all be blamed on men.

So either God could put this right, but won't, or he would but can't.

How do Christians answer that?

God can't. That was my point. Not without help at least.

Look, this whole thread implies divine omnipotence or God's ability to do all things, including the prevention of innocent (animal) suffering.

But none of that (i.e., theodicy / the problem of evil) exists if we recognize the true power (or better, powerlessness) of God, i.e., God calls.

Per process theology (to use a common paradigm), God's power is persuasive in nature. The actual brute, coercive force to actualize the call comes from us or from other real beings in the world with real-world power. So without that response, i.e., without real-world power sources actually stepping up and answering God's call to justice / life (for animals and whatever else), ain't nothing gonna happen about it.

It doesn't matter if the suffering predates us, is due to other natural occurrences, or anything else. None of it can be put at God's feet.

To go back to my initial point, the question in the OP is fair and valid for any Christians who assume omnipotence. I 100% agree on that as well as the dissatisfying nature of responses. But it's all based on a concept of God as omnipotent Being that has highly questionable biblical credentials.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #19]

Indeed. Being God and all knowing also means that He knows what is yet to come, and what is needed (and when) to bring His plan to fruition, and to put a permanent end to suffering and death. It means that He has already seen the end. Our view is limited; His view is not.

Therefore, it's OK for god to allow suffering. If god is as it's said, he could change 'the end' to the effect where suffering is not needed.

Says who?

You mentioned God as being all-knowing. Well, an all knowing God means that He knows what is yet to come and what is needed (and when).

Stating a truth is not making excuses, even if some wish to ignore (and/or do not accept) that truth.

Stating your opinion of faith as fact isn't truth. It's an opinion. An opinion that's held to excuse your sock of a god. But again, if you're OK with that, so be it.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read the exchange that prompted my response. Because it is not an opinion that the earth is different now than when it was created. Not only that, but you said 'lets assume that is true'. Therefore, stating something true is not making excuses.

I believe all of those fit only the agenda of those who wish to convince others that God does not exist.

Remove the bolded word and same is said of your faith. And here we are.

Considering the three options you supplied, what you just said makes no sense.

1) God does care, 2) does not enjoy the suffering, and 3) has done something about it.

1) He allowed his creation to fall into sin when he could have prevented it. Care indeed

Perhaps everyone should take note then. If you have children (including adult children), you must never EVER allow them to make their own decisions, even after you have warned them about consequences to certain actions. You must never EVER all them to choose for themselves. You must never EVER let them suffer the consequences of their decisions, even if that means letting them grow into mature and wise beings, who will care about their fellow man. Otherwise, you do not care about them.

2) He's allowing it when he could prevent it and still have the outcome he so desperately wished.

Now that is an opinion.

But on His timeline,

So it would seem. We're all slaves to its timeline, ego tripping needs and its wants.

If you had not cut the sentence off halfway through you might have noticed that the timeline is for our benefit.

What can we do about it? Maybe satan was right to tell humanity the truth god tried (not so hard) to hide? Hmmm....

What a strange comment.

which HE knows is needed so as to bring about the promises that He has made,

That's a lot of ME ME ME ME ME in reference to god.

Promises made to US.

You know that whole... no more suffering, mourning, death; the GIFT of eternal life, promises and blessing that are for us and for our children?

and to protect life (including eternal life).

Suffering protects life?

The timeline does. Too soon could be catastrophic. Too late as well. Everything must be just so.

That's a new evil thought attributed to such a loving sack that is god.

Well it was your thought, not mine.

And (I know I'm going to regret asking this) how does eternal life need protecting? From what?

From death.




Peace again to you and to you all.

[1213]

...
Your response creates curious question(s). Are you an OEC (old earth creationist) or a YEC (young earth creationist)?

Your assertion, that the 'Garden of Eden', is what set off such chain of events, assumes that either:

a. animals only started to exist when humans started to exist, or...
b. that the current observed animal nature, that we see today, and also explained in the video, only began to exist after the "fall'? That animals experienced no 'suffering' before the fall?

I don't know is earth old or young. I believe animals were created as the Bible tells, before humans. And I think it is possible that animals experienced no suffering before things were corrupted.

[1213]

Animals are far from mindless. Dolphins introduce themselves to other dolphins using their unique signature whistle. Orcas use language as well and live in a community as do dolphins. African Grey Parrots not only mimic human language, but some have been known to create unique sentences. Elephants mourn the deaths of family members and visit the bones of their dead. Animals clearly think and understand a great deal.
...

For me the problem with that is, it can be just result of instinct based actions, they may be like programmed biological robots that seem the be thinking, but just act like the program says.

[1213]

... it still has this problem of why God allowed Adam's fall to bring down all the rest of Creation- which did nothing wrong - with him. Tam's 'God want us to treat animals nice' is an excuse, and where in the Bible does God imply that Man can't do whatever he likes to animals? ...

Man can do many things, it does not necessary mean all those things are good. It would be interesting to know, what is life for animals, do they act like programmed robots, or are they sentient beings. I think for this issue it would be essential to know it, but unfortunately I don't know it.

[tam]

Peace to you both,

...
Your response creates curious question(s). Are you an OEC (old earth creationist) or a YEC (young earth creationist)?

Your assertion, that the 'Garden of Eden', is what set off such chain of events, assumes that either:

a. animals only started to exist when humans started to exist, or...
b. that the current observed animal nature, that we see today, and also explained in the video, only began to exist after the "fall'? That animals experienced no 'suffering' before the fall?

I don't know is earth old or young. I believe animals were created as the Bible tells, before humans. And I think it is possible that animals experienced no suffering before things were corrupted.

In answer to the questions from POI, I accept that the earth is old (I have no reason not to accept that). For the rest I agree with what 1213 has said here.


Peace again!

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #34]

Says who?

Anyone with a lick of common sense

You mentioned God as being all-knowing. Well, an all knowing God means that He knows what is yet to come and what is needed (and when).

Yes, I mentioned some believe that though it's not been proven as factually accurate. This doesn't mean god is doing anything to end suffering. God is also said to be all powerful, which means it could end suffering without changing its precious outcome OR change the outcome (after all, who will complain if god changes the outcome?!? Literally NO ONE). Yet it doesn't. So this means only a couple of things:
1) it can't, which would mean it's not all powerful and thus, brings into question literally EVERYTHING that's been said about it
2) it won't, which would mean it should be questioned rather or not to worship such a pile or
3) it's not real to do anything, which would mean EVERYTHING you believe about it is worthless.

Because it is not an opinion that the earth is different now than when it was created.

Irrelevant. No matter how different the earth is or isn't now doesn't mean god cares or doesn't care. And, it could have nothing to do with god. If you're going to grasp at straws, make 'em good straws.

Not only that, but you said 'lets assume that is true'.

For most, if not all, of your arguments, we have to assume they're true for them to work. Otherwise, they're as worthless as your god

Considering the three options you supplied, what you just said makes no sense.

Only a closed mind would make that determination. People devote their entire beings to things that aren't real or known to not be real. They discuss and argue over it (case in point this very site). They 'live and breath it'. That doesn't mean that 'thing' is real.

If you have children...

The whole 'compare god to parent' mantra is so trite and old. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Parents aren't all knowing, all powerful, all creating, the 'beginning and the end', the 'alpha and omega' or whatever nonsensical tripe the bible vomits forth. You're gonna' have to do a lot better than that!

2) He's allowing it when he could prevent it and still have the outcome he so desperately wished.

Now that is an opinion.

Only if one believes it's not all powerful. To your credit, there are christians (term used loosely) that believe just that. For those, your statement would make more sense. If you're one of those, then that's great for you!

If you had not cut the sentence off halfway through you might have noticed that the timeline is for our benefit.

I hald to 'cut the sentence ½ way through' to concisely respond to your deluge of thought. I saw the whole sentence (miraculously as there were so, so many) and the 'to our benefit' is an OPINION, not a fact. An opinion force fed to you by dogma, lacking all common sense, that you accepted that fits your chosen lifestyle agenda. Believe it if you want - I don't give a hoot, but be ready to be challenged by it.

What can we do about it? Maybe satan was right to tell humanity the truth god tried (not so hard) to hide? Hmmm....
What a strange comment.

I'm sorry you don't understand that, but II understand why.

Promises made to US.

None that I've seen have some to fruition. But hope springs eternal! And allows others to control people, get their money and time. I guess it's not all bad, depending on whom is asked.

The timeline does. Too soon could be catastrophic. Too late as well. Everything must be just so.

That's literally not what you said. Too soon, too late, excuse after excuse after excuse with literally NOTHING to back it up past a few biblical quotes and opinions.

Well it was your thought, not mine.

Potato, potatato, I suppose. Nothing your god does is evil to you, it's probably always just and right and perfect (with enough excuses you can make anything 'work'). But not everyone shares that slanted and biased, religiously closed POV.

But NONE of this has addressed why god allows suffering other then 'just 'cause he's god'.
I suppose for some, that's enough.
I suspect, they're a limited amount.

Have a great godless week!!!

[Tcg]

Animals are far from mindless. Dolphins introduce themselves to other dolphins using their unique signature whistle. Orcas use language as well and live in a community as do dolphins. African Grey Parrots not only mimic human language, but some have been known to create unique sentences. Elephants mourn the deaths of family members and visit the bones of their dead. Animals clearly think and understand a great deal.
...

For me the problem with that is, it can be just result of instinct based actions, they may be like programmed biological robots that seem the be thinking, but just act like the program says.

Certainly, there are instincts which could account for some behavior, same as with the human animal, but not these. They display complex thought, memory, and emotions that go way beyond simply instincts.


Tcg