Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[brunumb]

Sin = error (which would include wrongdoing, but also sin/error in the flesh - which is why the flesh can get sick and can die).
I won't speak for anyone else, but I have certainly committed wrongdoing on numerous occasions.
As for death entering the world, Adam subjecting the world and even his own offspring to Death (the Destroyer), I am just going to link to a post from earlier on. The thread was 'motivations' and the OP was from EJ (Elijah John):
viewtopic.php?p=772614#p772614

None of which explains exactly what "sin entered the world" actually entails. It's just a lot of beating around the bush about what constitutes a sin and who is to blame and whatever. All just evasive rhetoric.

Adam treated the gifts that God gave him, appallingly. Adam treated his wife appallingly (blaming both her and God for what he chose to do). Adam treated the world and the life that had been given to him to care for, to 'husband' (and even his own offspring not yet born) without regard.

No he didn't. Compare God's imposition of pain, misery, disease, suffering and death with Adam's act of disobedience after being deceived and it is patently obvious who behaved appallingly. Adam didn't treat the world with contempt. It was God who subjected the world to all that. But it didn't stop there. He let humanity deteriorate without any attempted intervention to the point where his benign solution was to kill almost everyone including innocent animals. Then he sat on his hands while it all went down the gurgler again until he came up with his absurd sacrificial solution that didn't really do anything to improve the world at all. And people have the temerity to put it all down to a ridiculous scenario where sin magically "entered the world" because a hapless couple ate a piece of fruit.

[brunumb]

Ironically many of the people you are debating with did just that, day in, day out for up to decades and eventually came to the realisation that Jesus was nothing more than a long dead preacher man.

And it is such realization as to why said ex-believer was never a true believer in the first place. The Bible is clear on that.

At last. We finally get the playing of the "No True Believer Card". Too funny. Everyone who is a believer is a True Believer until they realise that it was all just religious nonsense and then they were never a True Believer. You really have to be desperate to play that card.

It seems that the indoctrination can wear off for some with genuinely open minds.

Well, I dont have that much of an open mind to believe in evolution.

That is patently obvious, but not an admission that warrants any respect.

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

No problem at all. God may have morally sufficient reasons for permitting ANY suffering. Now, if you feel as if God's reasons aren't sufficient, then you and God simply disagree...and the one with the gold makes the rules .

God is the one with the gold.

Next..

Spoken like a true Christian. "God works in mysterious ways." "No one knows the mind of God."

And I guess if your believed upon God exists, "might makes right"?

If you don't really care to put any thought into this seemingly important thread, then just say so; or do not respond in the first place.

[William]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

No problem at all. God may have morally sufficient reasons for permitting ANY suffering. Now, if you feel as if God's reasons aren't sufficient, then you and God simply disagree...and the one with the gold makes the rules .

God is the one with the gold.

Next..

Spoken like a true Christian. "God works in mysterious ways." "No one knows the mind of God."

And I guess if your believed upon God exists, "might makes right"?

If you don't really care to put any thought into this seemingly important thread, then just say so; or do not respond in the first place.

I don't know if there is any way to verify what a "True Christian" is, but I got similar treatment in another thread today. [LINK]

Seems the last straw to make the strawman appear real, is to denounce all those not in favor, as being 'Sons of Satan' - one cannot win that fight...because it is non-negotiable.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Sin = error (which would include wrongdoing, but also sin/error in the flesh - which is why the flesh can get sick and can die).
I won't speak for anyone else, but I have certainly committed wrongdoing on numerous occasions.
As for death entering the world, Adam subjecting the world and even his own offspring to Death (the Destroyer), I am just going to link to a post from earlier on. The thread was 'motivations' and the OP was from EJ (Elijah John):
viewtopic.php?p=772614#p772614

None of which explains exactly what "sin entered the world" actually entails. It's just a lot of beating around the bush about what constitutes a sin and who is to blame and whatever. All just evasive rhetoric.

Sin entered the world through Adam, because Adam is the one who sinned. Sin entered onto the scene. Death entered through that sin.

Adam treated the gifts that God gave him, appallingly. Adam treated his wife appallingly (blaming both her and God for what he chose to do). Adam treated the world and the life that had been given to him to care for, to 'husband' (and even his own offspring not yet born) without regard.

No he didn't. Compare God's imposition of pain, misery, disease, suffering and death with Adam's act of disobedience after being deceived

Adam was not deceived.

The earth was cursed because of what Adam did. That is exactly what is written in the text.

"Cursed is the ground because of you."

Still, had Adam repented, even asked forgiveness for his wife as Christ asks forgiveness for HIS bride, there is no reason to think he could/would not have been forgiven. But he did not to those things. He blamed God and his wife. He did not show love in his disloyalty to God, or to his wife, or to his offspring or to the world he had been given to govern. That does not mean that Adam did not learn love, and empathy (albeit now through suffering).

I am certainly not judging him, though, because I also have sinned. I have no right (or desire) to judge anyone.


Peace again to you.

[benchwarmer]

Oh look, an unrelated rant about evolution. You know very well that if you want to see evidence of evolution you are welcome to head to a university running evolutionary experiments in the lab.

It is related though. There is something about my religion (Christianity) that you want to see, but don't.

And there is something about your religion (evolution) that I'd like to see, but don't.

I don't have a religion, I'm an atheist and non-religious person. If the scientific theory of evolution is ever overturned by newer, better data, methodology, and theories, I'll be on board with no issue. I have no religious ties to any science. I do, however, seem to have to constantly explain how science is not religion for some reason.

Just as you will likely never be bothered and put in the effort to fix your lips to utter the words JESUS IS LORD and meaning it with all your mind, body, and spirit.

Well, wrong yet again. Been there, done that, bought the rosary.

Fortunately, I was open minded enough to overcome my initial indoctrination and be open to truly understanding how Christianity was formed and what it's based on. Upon discovering the utter lack of any real evidence for it beyond the Bible based circular reasoning, I reluctantly let go of my faith. Be clear that I'm still open to "something beyond us", but given no actual evidence for any particular thing, I'll let observable, verifiable evidence point me towards whatever "something" that may be out there. If there is something out there and it made us, it gave us senses, reasoning, and logic and I prefer to employ those from now on. I no longer cling to emotional ploys or give any credence to empty threats from apologists.

One word: Bacteria

One bacteria (cell) is more complicated/complex than a space shuttle...and a space shuttle is probably the most complex machine ever built by man.

Well, that one flew right over your head apparently. You brought up evolution and claimed that the theory will only show iteself "if we wait a couple hundred million years". Again, I direct you to evolutionary biologists who are observing evolution in the lab with bacteria. No millions of years required. Feel free to keep misrepresenting actual science and ignoring the data provided. It's not helping your case.

Hmmm. But the space shuttle is intelligently designed, however a cell isn't?

Taxi cab fallacy.

Sometimes I think you just randomly plop down fallacy names and have no clue what they really mean. I don't recall jumping into the creationist taxi and then jumping out of the science one. Feel free to explain it. You might want to look it up first though.

dog, god, ....

Yeah thats cute. Just make sure you spell dog with a capital D for me.

Thanks

You're welcome. I would only use a capital D for the one true dog who is Dog, but sure.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #135]

"Cursed is the ground because of you."

Indeed, it was not Adam but the God who put evil into the world by cursing the very planet and thus all living creatures, according to the very words recorded.

This appears to signify that without the curse, death could not have happened, in the same way that without taking away the tree of life, death could not have occurred.

It is strange how a curse was necessary - a bunch of curses actually. And withholding access. Sending away. Depriving.

It all does read like the God wanted it that way, but didn't want to be seen to be the one who directly caused it to be that way.

The curses did not effect just the one fellow who had chosen to try and hide what he did and blame others, but the whole planet.

As an explanation for why the planet is like it is, the explanation is poorly thought through and depends on a God-being cursing and doing all that other stuff.

Nature explains it better. There was no curse. It has always been this way and is not evil. Scary? Yep. Dark in places? Naturally enough - because of the mostly dark space it floats and spins within.

But all made that way by a nasty God-being-Creator which humans have tried for thousands of years to make look good?

I don't think so.

[tam]

Peace to you William!

[Replying to tam in post #135]

"Cursed is the ground because of you."

Indeed, it was not Adam but the God who put evil into the world by cursing the very planet and thus all living creatures, according to the very words recorded.

If it was written "I curse the ground because of you", then I could agree that the words record that God cursed the ground. But that is not what is written.

Sort of like when people think that God punished Adam and Eve with death for having eaten from the tree of knowing good and bad. That is also not what is written. God did not say, "eat and I will kill you". He said, "eat and you will die". Cause and effect.

This appears to signify that without the curse, death could not have happened, in the same way that without taking away the tree of life, death could not have occurred.

It is strange how a curse was necessary - a bunch of curses actually.

Saying the ground is cursed because of you is a statement, not a curse.

And withholding access. Sending away. Depriving.

Not permitting Adam and Eve to then reach out and eat from the Tree of Life IS something that God did.

So [the Lord God] banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #138]

Your argument does not really address the issue I was actually pointing to. All it does is claim that there is some type of magical quality related to the power of one persons actions to somehow curse a whole planet and every living thing upon it.

Add to that, the idea that a God made things so they could be that way equates to something nature is not seen to supply any evidential support for, and we are thus still left with Nature explains it better. There was no curse. It has always been this way and is not evil. Scary? Yep. Dark in places? Naturally enough - because of the mostly dark space it floats and spins within.

But all made that way by a nasty God-being-Creator which humans have tried for thousands of years to make look good?

I don't think so.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #138]

God did not say, "eat and I will kill you". He said, "eat and you will die". Cause and effect.

This harkens to the act of keeping the pair from having access to the fruit of life. Thus the cause is preventing that access and the effect was that they eventually died.

So while it can be noted that the God did not say "I will kill you" the Gods actions still made it certain that they would die.