A simple---but serious---question

[Athetotheist]

There are numerous god-men who died and rose from death in stories predating the time of Jesus. Considering the notable differences between the gospel accounts, and particularly the differences between the accounts of Jesus's supposed resurrection, here's a question for gospel apologists to think seriously about:

There are four resurrection accounts about Jesus in the Christian gospels. If the exact same accounts, with the exact same differences, were written about Osiris, Tammuz, Attis or any such god-man other than Jesus, would Christian apologists find all of those accounts believable?

And if they wouldn't find all of them believable, would they find any of them believable?

[JehovahsWitness]

CONTRADICTION: Joseph's father was Jacob VS Joseph's father was Heli.

Matthew 1:16
…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

VS

Luke 3:23
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

That would depend on what is meant by the term "father". We dont always use the term to refer to ones biological father, for example in many cultures an older respected member of the communitynis called by this term. And Abraham is referred to in scripture as "The Father of all those having faith". Given this one might be considered a tad hasty to declare the above a contradiction without examining how the term "father " is used in Hebrew geneological listings.

Who was Heli?
viewtopic.php?p=873761#p873761

[JehovahsWitness]

CONTRADICTION: Take your staff VS Don't take your staff

Mark 6:8
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff–no bread, no bag, no money in their belts–

VS

Luke 9:3-5
And he said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.

Are you absolutely sure: these two instructions were given on the same occassion?





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

For the same MM to deliver these two mutually exclusive messages she would have to have done so at different times, so you have to have her saying one thing upon her first return from the tomb and the other thing upon her second return (John 20:18).

Exactly! Mary was evidently at the tomb on at least two separate occassions that morning....once (at dawn) with the women and once with Peter and John.


(I'm ignoring your point about the women since I already stated that Luke was summarizing the events of the day)


FURTHER READING Synopsis
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p926583



RELATED POSTS

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#p926568

When did Mary first see Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 69#p926569

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p908706

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

CONTRADICTIONS , SEQUENCING and ...EASTER CHALLENGES*

* harmonizing the resurrection narratives

[Athetotheist]

For the same MM to deliver these two mutually exclusive messages she would have to have done so at different times, so you have to have her saying one thing upon her first return from the tomb and the other thing upon her second return (John 20:18).

Exactly! Mary was evidently at the tomb on at least two separate occassions that morning....once (at dawn) with the women and once with Peter and John.


(I'm ignoring your point about the women since I already stated that Luke was summarizing the events of the day)

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

CONTRADICTIONS , SEQUENCING and ...EASTER CHALLENGES*

* harmonizing the resurrection narratives

You assume that Luke was summarizing, but in 1:3 the author claims to have researched everything carefully to write an orderly account. Nowhere does the author say that he is "summarizing", and in light of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which was mentioned recently, you would need scripture to establish that he was.

[Athetotheist]

CONTRADICTION: Take your staff VS Don't take your staff

Mark 6:8
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff–no bread, no bag, no money in their belts–

VS

Luke 9:3-5
And he said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.

Are you absolutely sure: these two instructions were given on the same occassion?





JW

The indication in the text is that they are supposed to be the same event. Both accounts have Jesus sending the apostles out, Herod hearing of Jesus, the apostles returning, going with Jesus into a secluded place and feeding the same sized multitude with the same number of loaves and the same number of fish. In otherwise "harmonious" narratives, that thing about the staves stands out like a sore thumb.

[brunumb]

Matthew 1:16[/b]
…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.[/indent]

Luke 3:23[/b]
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,[/indent]

That would depend on what is meant by the term "father". We dont always use the term to refer to ones biological father, for example in many cultures an older respected member of the communitynis called by this term. And Abraham is referred to in scripture as "The Father of all those having faith". Given this one might be considered a tad hasty to declare the above a contradiction without examining how the term "father " is used in Hebrew geneological listings.

Are you suggesting that 'father' in a geneological listing would not refer to the biological father?

In the statement 'Jacob the father of Joseph', what other than the biological father would be inferred?

[Miles]

CONTRADICTION: Joseph's father was Jacob VS Joseph's father was Heli.

Matthew 1:16
…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

VS

Luke 3:23
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

That would depend on what is meant by the term "father". We dont always use the term to refer to ones biological father, for example in many cultures an older respected member of the communitynis called by this term. And Abraham is referred to in scripture as "The Father of all those having faith". Given this one might be considered a tad hasty to declare the above a contradiction without examining how the term "father " is used in Hebrew geneological listings.

Then its up to you, or whomever, to prove, not just claim, one of the two is not the biological father of Joseph, because as it now stands both are credited with that honor, both in the Bible and in genealogies

.........................

Who was Heli?
viewtopic.php?p=873761#p873761

One of two men credited with being Jesus's grandfather, and as such is part of the several contradictions within the gospels.


.

[Miles]

CONTRADICTION: Take your staff VS Don't take your staff

Mark 6:8
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff–no bread, no bag, no money in their belts–

VS

Luke 9:3-5
And he said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.

Are you absolutely sure: these two instructions were given on the same occassion?

Yes I am.


.

[TRANSPONDER]

CONTRADICTION: Joseph's father was Jacob VS Joseph's father was Heli.

Matthew 1:16
…and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

VS

Luke 3:23
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

That would depend on what is meant by the term "father". We dont always use the term to refer to ones biological father, for example in many cultures an older respected member of the communitynis called by this term. And Abraham is referred to in scripture as "The Father of all those having faith". Given this one might be considered a tad hasty to declare the above a contradiction without examining how the term "father " is used in Hebrew geneological listings.

Who was Heli?
viewtopic.php?p=873761#p873761

Miles above has it right. Just as in the excuse that one genealogy is that of Mary, both trace the fathers and forefathers of Joseph. That is what they say and neither can be passed off as a collateral branch or anything else. Like these other contradictions, they are supposed to be the same thing and they are different.

[1213]

...
There's enough spiritual wisdom in, say, the Tao Te Ching without having to accept inconsistent accounts of extraordinary events as historical.

One reason why I believe in the Bible and think it is influenced by God is that atheist don't comprehend it, they see it inconsistent and contradictory, all though it is not so. But, what do you think is the greatest wisdom of Tao Te Ching?

But maybe it is simply so that not all will understand.

But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:26-28