Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.
The temperature Fahrenheit -455 creates yet another problem for the creation story. Genesis 1:1-2 states this:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Darkness was over the surface of the deep because God had not yet gotten around to creating any of the stars including our Sun. That wouldn't happen until the fourth day.

The temperature of deep space is approximately -455 Fahrenheit. Obviously, there would be no water in liquid from, only ice.

How could there be any water for the Spirit of God to hover over before the Sun had been created?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

Tcg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:40 pm ...
Darkness was over the surface of the deep because God had not yet gotten around to creating any of the stars including our Sun. ...
But there was light, doesn't that count something?

God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Gen. 1:3

I think it is possible to have other sources of heat than sun and stars. For example allegedly earths core is extremely hot nowadays. All thought, it would have been much easier to move on top of ice than liquid water.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #3

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:09 pm
Tcg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:40 pm ...
Darkness was over the surface of the deep because God had not yet gotten around to creating any of the stars including our Sun. ...
But there was light, doesn't that count something?

God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Gen. 1:3
Verse 3 comes after verses 1 and 2.

I think it is possible to have other sources of heat than sun and stars. For example allegedly earths core is extremely hot nowadays. All thought, it would have been much easier to move on top of ice than liquid water.

The passage refers to water, not ice.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7956
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 931 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #4

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:09 pm
Tcg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:40 pm ...
Darkness was over the surface of the deep because God had not yet gotten around to creating any of the stars including our Sun. ...
But there was light, doesn't that count something?

God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Gen. 1:3

I think it is possible to have other sources of heat than sun and stars. For example allegedly earths core is extremely hot nowadays. All thought, it would have been much easier to move on top of ice than liquid water.
it would have been much easier to move on top of ice I love the idea of the Spirit of God ice - skating.

We can take it that (like almost all creationists) you accept science on teaching a round earth, heliocentric system and deep space (and deny that Genesis uses the Babylonian cosmic model (1), though perhaps rejecting science on evolution, and Deep time Geology rather than creation (3) .

The fact is that water being liquid on earth has nothing whatever to do with the molten core, and everything to do with the heat of the sun. Light in itself is not warm (so far as I know) and it is heat that warms (2) and specifically the heat of the sun. Before the creation of the sun, there would not have been enough warmth to melt cosmic ice into water.

Though of course, if you think about it, you can hardly be arguing (if you don't think the world is flat) that the earth and half of creation came about before God thought a sun and moon would be a good idea.

I'd guess the answer to the OP is: 'hardly any Creationist thinks the sun was actually created at such a later stage (hang on..let me get me Theist hat) and it was there (supplying heat to melt cosmic ice) but nobody on earth could see it' O:) (cloud -cover apologetic). Which rebuttal we have seen before - nobody WAS on earth to see it so it must be God telling whoever wrote the account. So why did He tell them what was wrong?

(1) there's a point here and I'm amazed I never thought of it before. If the Bible doesn't describe a flat earth and sky dome with the sun rotating around the earth, why did everyone up to the 16th century think it did? The answer must be, human false understanding - The Bible described the universe as it is, even though it doesn't look like it. Which is where the 'adapting Genesis to fit science' (apart from Evilooshun) apologetic comes from.

(2) there's going to be a temptation for the theist apologist to wave the magic wand. 'If God can create light without a sun to produce it (the moon reflects sunlight and produces almost none on its' own) God can produce heat without any source in order to melt cosmic ice'. But if one is going to do God - magic like that, discussion of practical events is going to be irrelevant, anyway.

(3) the Rule is: "Deny science, but not so much that people start laughing at you".

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #5

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:57 pm ...you accept science on teaching a round earth, heliocentric system and deep space (and deny that Genesis uses the Babylonian cosmic model (1), though perhaps rejecting science on evolution, and Deep time Geology rather than creation (3) .
What is "science"? It seems to be like god to some atheist, some person who tells how things are. I accept all true observations, but not all what "science" say is a true observation. Heliocentric system is just a belief that can't really be proven properly, scientifically. Also, long time is something that can't be really proven scientifically.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:57 pmThe fact is that water being liquid on earth has nothing whatever to do with the molten core, and everything to do with the heat of the sun. Light in itself is not warm (so far as I know) and it is heat that warms (2) and specifically the heat of the sun. Before the creation of the sun, there would not have been enough warmth to melt cosmic ice into water. ...
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you. It is possible that in the beginning the core was warmer. Also, the light that Bible speaks of could have included heat.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm Also, the light that Bible speaks of could have included heat.
Even if your supposition, which isn't supported by the Bible, were correct it wouldn't matter. The light you are referring to comes after the tale of God's Spirit hovering over the waters.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #7

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 pm Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you. It is possible that in the beginning the core was warmer. Also, the light that Bible speaks of could have included heat.
The problem, both here and in other threads, is that you are provided with many, many, many good reasons to accept propositions, but you simply dismiss them without good reasons in reply. Saying that something is possible is not an argument. When invoking omnipotent gods, anything is possible. In order to dismiss a proposition with an alternative possibility it helps to provide evidence in support of that possibility being an actuality. All of your counter-arguments invariably boil down to personal opinion rather than demonstrable facts.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:40 pm .
The temperature Fahrenheit -455 creates yet another problem for the creation story. Genesis 1:1-2 states this:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Darkness was over the surface of the deep because God had not yet gotten around to creating any of the stars including our Sun. That wouldn't happen until the fourth day.

The temperature of deep space is approximately -455 Fahrenheit. Obviously, there would be no water in liquid from, only ice.

How could there be any water for the Spirit of God to hover over before the Sun had been created?


Tcg
Interesting POV, but I've found trying to make sense out of the senselessness of the bible is a futile challenge. You could spend 5 years showing how something specific in the bible is wrong, and all the believer has to reply is 'with god, all things are possible' and POOF - they 'win'.
For those that want live in reality, it's a no-win situation. For that that want to live by faith, in their own world, they can never be wrong because how can you disprove 'faith' when it's 'faith' in "made up stuff" of the biblical stories?
Trying to convince a believer they're wrong is like trying to milk stone.
But, it is fun to watch the dancing they do!
Sometimes milking rocks can be fun to watch.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #9

Post by Tcg »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:29 am

Interesting POV, but I've found trying to make sense out of the senselessness of the bible is a futile challenge. You could spend 5 years showing how something specific in the bible is wrong, and all the believer has to reply is 'with god, all things are possible' and POOF - they 'win'.
I'm not trying to make sense of the Bible. I found what I think is a fascinating conundrum and thought I'd solicit other's ideas on the issue it creates.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Fahrenheit -455 Another Problem with the Creation Tale

Post #10

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:25 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:29 am

Interesting POV, but I've found trying to make sense out of the senselessness of the bible is a futile challenge. You could spend 5 years showing how something specific in the bible is wrong, and all the believer has to reply is 'with god, all things are possible' and POOF - they 'win'.
I'm not trying to make sense of the Bible. I found what I think is a fascinating conundrum and thought I'd solicit other's ideas on the issue it creates.


Tcg
Ah gotcha'!
Should be interesting to see others' POV.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

Post Reply