Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #1

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I just recalled a puzzle that puzzled me on my former board. Now some 'agnostics' (irreligious theists or Deists) were like bosom buddies and were as touch on Biblewrit as I was and were regarded by the theists posters as being atheist pretty much.

But there were Some avowed agnostics (1) who were implacably hostile towards atheists. And I couldn't make it out. One was playing the cultural Christianity,we need religion,true or not and look at all the good it has done -card for all he was worth. He sometimes forgot himself so much as to post cut and paste and even videos arguing for religion as true . nit just necessary. Another arrived having just accepted that if you didn't believe in a god you were an atheist, but he later tried to deny that and swore he was just an 'agnostic'. His line was atheism is being ruined by those loudmouths who argue atheism. that "atheism should do is shut up an go away and let Christianity die a natural death" 8-) Yes, I can see how that would springboard atheism into dominating US society in a year or so. A third well he claimed to be an atheist but he...well his beliefs were evasive and his view of Other atheists were that they were...whatever bad thing he could think to say. And the last actually the first :D tried to validate theism by fiddling with definitions. I used to say 'You could call your garden gnome 'God' and claim that you'd proved that God was real, but that won't convince anyone else'. But the fact was that he didn't care, just so long as he could keep trolling atheists.

In fact it was the later two that clued me in and of course it is a US phenomenon, and is actually not to be found in the UK. One of them arrived beefing and whining about religious values and about boys dressed as girls and same sex bathrooms. In short, residual Catholic values. The clue is in politics and the way religion is welded back to back at the metal plate in their skulls. Also te sheer bad rap the name'atheist has may make Americans want to call themselves Anything other than atheist
"Heck no, I ain't no atheist - I just don't believe in God, that's all!" There sees to be all kinds of associated baggage that goes with atheism apart from no god -belief. No wonder they can't believe that's all it really is. Apart from the books, websites and infesting forums like this, but that's not atheism. That's just what we do ;) .

Thus some may come to doubt or even disbelieve in God or at least religion, but they have some idea that (if so) they must turn in their right wing party card and apply for a Liberal party plastic swipe. This is of course nonsense since (in the UK at least) politics and social ideas has no more to do with religion than it has to do with your taste in music or films. But that explained everything. They had either to identify with a right kind of atheist and find some way of demonising the Wrong kind (who were liberals espousing all those pinkoe values they hated) or they were desperately trying to find a god they could believe in without having to flush their brains out with Holy Water.,so they could stop being atheist Cosmic Mind or Intelligent nature is not a bad one as you can't deny the Cosmos and nature can you? Evidence is all there. :) ,

Discussion point? Please yourselves, I've done enough for one night.

(1) one reluctantly accepted that he was actually an atheist since he didn't believe in God anymore and another claimed to be an atheist but was trying to talk himself into believing in a cosmic mind. The third well he arrived as an agnostic if not an atheist ...but I'll leave that to the post.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:42 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:20 pm Quite possibly. Or I've been misled by a few 'Agnostics' who make a point of going after atheists. I have have interacted with a few who have been very companionable towards atheists. But then I did post to get some more feedback.
I also wonder by what means someone claims 'the worst' of something. I've found many times, one person can say or do one thing to which another takes sever offense, when it's not necessary, claiming 'that's the worst thing I've ever heard' and passing that judgement on that person.

In other words, some need a thicker skin these days.
:D That cuts both ways of course. And I try to to take personal offence as difference, disagreement (1) and debate isn't going to hurt me. Either he is right or I can show he isn't. Debate is why we're here. It's irritating when a Theist goies into mode 3 ( cheek, snark and sauce which may be trying to score irreleevant points or trying to score even in trashtalk or do ultimate denial...I won't get deep into this...but remember that the browsers will see ho has the argument and who is in denial - unless they're a set mind anyway, in which case, what can you do? But I remember these people are potential converts as many atheists used to be believers, and th irreligious theists and cafeteria Christians, the peddlers of 'metaphorically true' and the adapters of Genesis to fit science ;) are half way to seeing that science and logic is right and the Bible and religious Faith has it wrong.

Thus today's opponent in tomorrow's ally. There is no reason for me to get hurt, offended or hostile.

On the theist side (including the irreligious theist or 'agnostic' as they prefer to call themselves, they can and do get very antagonistic, hostile and even abusive and it may be from 2 reason't I've seen signs of:

(a) they do not Believe the Bible or religion, so they have lost ALL apologetics other than First cause and other ID arguments, and they are not only not enough to validate a god -claim, let alone a god - belief, but it doesn't matter because a possible 'Cosmic Mind' with no relevance to any human religion is academic anyway, and why they want to get so butthurt because I say 'I don't know whether there are extraterrestrial races somewhere' wen they was to Believe in them is only residual Biblefaith, or they an't stand anyone not thinking the same way. I don't know. Thus I asked for feedback.

(2) Political. Very common. Combined with a residual Faith they have lost, but can be detected in the 'we need religion, true or not' argument and references to how much good religion has done or 'no morality without religion'. Which is irrelevant and false, respectively. But what comes with this is often a residual political attitude which dislikes change social evolution and anything 'Liburl' (aka commie). And with a loos of Religion often comes an overnight swing to free thinking. Very often on sexual matters which Religion gets Very antsy about. So in addition to Not being able to use religious argument, it is far more effective to attack atheism on being logically wrong, morally lacking or the wrong kind of atheist. Which is the kind that 'attacks religion' (the 'please shut up an go away' apologetic) which is 'I don't believe religion but we need it to avoid collapse of society'. Whacky, but you know it's an 'agnostic' socio -political apologetic, and not only in the US.

(1) My best mate who lives in S America and we e -mail regularly and is probably more Family than even my family, disagree over the Falklands ;) (and Russia grabbing Crimea for that matter) but it doesn't sour our friendship.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #12

Post by nobspeople »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:15 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:42 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:20 pm Quite possibly. Or I've been misled by a few 'Agnostics' who make a point of going after atheists. I have have interacted with a few who have been very companionable towards atheists. But then I did post to get some more feedback.
I also wonder by what means someone claims 'the worst' of something. I've found many times, one person can say or do one thing to which another takes sever offense, when it's not necessary, claiming 'that's the worst thing I've ever heard' and passing that judgement on that person.

In other words, some need a thicker skin these days.
:D That cuts both ways of course. And I try to to take personal offence as difference, disagreement (1) and debate isn't going to hurt me. Either he is right or I can show he isn't. Debate is why we're here. It's irritating when a Theist goies into mode 3 ( cheek, snark and sauce which may be trying to score irreleevant points or trying to score even in trashtalk or do ultimate denial...I won't get deep into this...but remember that the browsers will see ho has the argument and who is in denial - unless they're a set mind anyway, in which case, what can you do? But I remember these people are potential converts as many atheists used to be believers, and th irreligious theists and cafeteria Christians, the peddlers of 'metaphorically true' and the adapters of Genesis to fit science ;) are half way to seeing that science and logic is right and the Bible and religious Faith has it wrong.

Thus today's opponent in tomorrow's ally. There is no reason for me to get hurt, offended or hostile.

On the theist side (including the irreligious theist or 'agnostic' as they prefer to call themselves, they can and do get very antagonistic, hostile and even abusive and it may be from 2 reason't I've seen signs of:

(a) they do not Believe the Bible or religion, so they have lost ALL apologetics other than First cause and other ID arguments, and they are not only not enough to validate a god -claim, let alone a god - belief, but it doesn't matter because a possible 'Cosmic Mind' with no relevance to any human religion is academic anyway, and why they want to get so butthurt because I say 'I don't know whether there are extraterrestrial races somewhere' wen they was to Believe in them is only residual Biblefaith, or they an't stand anyone not thinking the same way. I don't know. Thus I asked for feedback.

(2) Political. Very common. Combined with a residual Faith they have lost, but can be detected in the 'we need religion, true or not' argument and references to how much good religion has done or 'no morality without religion'. Which is irrelevant and false, respectively. But what comes with this is often a residual political attitude which dislikes change social evolution and anything 'Liburl' (aka commie). And with a loos of Religion often comes an overnight swing to free thinking. Very often on sexual matters which Religion gets Very antsy about. So in addition to Not being able to use religious argument, it is far more effective to attack atheism on being logically wrong, morally lacking or the wrong kind of atheist. Which is the kind that 'attacks religion' (the 'please shut up an go away' apologetic) which is 'I don't believe religion but we need it to avoid collapse of society'. Whacky, but you know it's an 'agnostic' socio -political apologetic, and not only in the US.

(1) My best mate who lives in S America and we e -mail regularly and is probably more Family than even my family, disagree over the Falklands ;) (and Russia grabbing Crimea for that matter) but it doesn't sour our friendship.
So many today don't understand people can disagree and not become enemies because of it. It's sad to think some people believe they're so right that those that don't agree with them are evil or bad or hateful or stupid.
Ironically, social media has shown us that many still live in bubbles.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #13

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I agree totally. And what do we do about that? I'm no expert and nobody is going hire me as a consultant, but I see time and time again that Reason and the willingness to listen is always the way to positive results in persons and groups. And the 'No I'm not going to listen' position leads to hostility and worse. And Reason is not taught in the curriculum nor even preached in society. Or not formally, because there is a LOT of sound reasoning and willingness to listen out there especially online, but the fact is that the social doctrine of the closed mind and loud mouth has been the norm for most of human history, and that has been (horrifyingly) regarded as strong and admirable.

"At least he has the courage of his convictions!" like stubborn refusal to listen is something to admire? Oh, I know why. A loudmouth issuing Dogma is easy. It saves thinking let alone (horror) checking claims. And those willing to listen and be reasonable is regarded as weak, milquetoast appeasement. That's why I took as my watchword, slogan and T- shirt 'Stand up for your right to be wishy -washy' (Charles Schultz).

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #14

Post by nobspeople »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:03 am I agree totally. And what do we do about that? I'm no expert and nobody is going hire me as a consultant, but I see time and time again that Reason and the willingness to listen is always the way to positive results in persons and groups. And the 'No I'm not going to listen' position leads to hostility and worse. And Reason is not taught in the curriculum nor even preached in society. Or not formally, because there is a LOT of sound reasoning and willingness to listen out there especially online, but the fact is that the social doctrine of the closed mind and loud mouth has been the norm for most of human history, and that has been (horrifyingly) regarded as strong and admirable.

"At least he has the courage of his convictions!" like stubborn refusal to listen is something to admire? Oh, I know why. A loudmouth issuing Dogma is easy. It saves thinking let alone (horror) checking claims. And those willing to listen and be reasonable is regarded as weak, milquetoast appeasement. That's why I took as my watchword, slogan and T- shirt 'Stand up for your right to be wishy -washy' (Charles Schultz).
While I won't chastise someone for standing up for what they believe (no matter how silly) so long as it doesn't impede others, I still can find some of these people...interesting....?
I've always said people are inherently lazy and when someone tells them something, it's easier to accept it than to research it or even think for themselves. I believe that this is one of the many reasons why people turn to religion: it fills in the blanks for their lives by what they're told. I don't see a whole lot of independent thinking inside religious circles.
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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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Yes and in fact this is a common argument and a misunderstood if not misrepresented one. We do not and really cannot research everything we are told. We HAVE to rely on being given reliable information about the way things are. And that's tough enough when we keep changing our minds on things, both subjective and objective. It's even worse when some Vested Interest 8-) tries to dismiss everything we thought we knew and insists that only information through Inspiration is reliable.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:17 pm Yes and in fact this is a common argument and a misunderstood if not misrepresented one. We do not and really cannot research everything we are told. We HAVE to rely on being given reliable information about the way things are. And that's tough enough when we keep changing our minds on things, both subjective and objective. It's even worse when some Vested Interest 8-) tries to dismiss everything we thought we knew and insists that only information through Inspiration is reliable.
Or when said trusted source(s) are found to have lied in the past.
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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:20 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:17 pm Yes and in fact this is a common argument and a misunderstood if not misrepresented one. We do not and really cannot research everything we are told. We HAVE to rely on being given reliable information about the way things are. And that's tough enough when we keep changing our minds on things, both subjective and objective. It's even worse when some Vested Interest 8-) tries to dismiss everything we thought we knew and insists that only information through Inspiration is reliable.
Or when said trusted source(s) are found to have lied in the past.
Quite. And that's why anything being open to question and not dogmatically maintained is a good thing. This is why research and re-examination , while it may be seen as uncertain and unsure, is stronger in the end than maintaining something as True no matter what reasons are found to show that people have been wrong (aside lying) in the past.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:20 am

Yes, you are right. I've been blasted on here before about this, but I will say it again - there is no middle road between theism and atheism. "Agnostic", as some people use it, means they are neither a believer or a non-believer. That is utter hogwash. They are claiming the equivalent of being sort-of pregnant. Either you believe or you don't. If someone says they are unsure if they believe, that is by definition NOT believing.

I very strongly disagree. There are uncountable levels of belief or doubt that one can have on any given assertion. Do you believe that my right hand has five fingers. Most people do, but not everyone does. You have no reason to think I am lying about it, but then again no proof that I am telling the truth. In other words it would be irrational to reject my assertion, but also irrational to have total belief in it.

Do you believe that I am wearing a hat on my head right now? There is no statically probability reason to give you confidence that this is true, unlike with the finger example, but then again no real reason do disbelieve either. So you probably have a mixture of belief and doubt about this assertion, but in different proportions than with the five fingers assertions.

Do you believe that I am holding a live adult African elephant in the palm my of right hand? Everything you know about the size of humans, elephants, and the laws of physics says no. On other hand you can't 100% prove that I can't magically defy these objections and hold the elephant anyway. Once again a mixture of believe and doubt, but in very different proportions.

Do you believe that the number of stars in existence in the universe right now is an even number? Is a question that should be responded to with pure agnosticism. These is no reason to believe it is even over believing it is odd or vice versa. There is no way to know which is right or wrong, or any reason to lean one way or the other.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

Post #19

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:20 am

You are right, and I shall have to think of one.

Let me cast my observation as a question:

Q . Do the bods here think that I am right in my idea ...this is hard to put as a question. mainly because some 'agnostics' do believe in a god (but not a religion) but others don't believe in a god (even if they believe in a religion for social purposes).... let's put it this way,

Do the bods here think that I am right in my idea that some or many who do not believe in a god, or Religion or both are still hostile to Atheists and atheism for reasons of socio/political partisanship?

I think that'll do as a Q.
pre -p.s thanks for your post. It is input into a thread of mine that sank almost immediately.

Yes, you are right. I've been blasted on here before about this, but I will say it again - there is no middle road between theism and atheism. "Agnostic", as some people use it, means they are neither a believer or a non-believer. That is utter hogwash. They are claiming the equivalent of being sort-of pregnant. Either you believe or you don't. If someone says they are unsure if they believe, that is by definition NOT believing.

This ignores the fact that the word gnostic deals with knowledge and not belief in the first place. Since people say they "are not sure", and they are talking about what they know, they call themselves agnostic. Somehow a comment about knowledge becomes a place where their belief is too, a "not sure" area. Makes zero sense.

I mention all this to arrive at why I think you are right. Some people don't believe, but see the atheist camp as one they don't want to be in because their friends won't like it. I say - get new friends then.
Yes. you are correct in that one either believes the god -claim, or one does not. Any 'on the wire' unsurety about whether one believes or not is hardly worth bothering about. Of course there are degrees of buy into theism or willingness to credit theist arguments without being convinced, but the cut -off between believing or not is pretty clear. Deconverts (and indeed converts) can identify the time they switched from one side to the other,

This is about belief or buy -in. Or non - belief and opt -out. Agnosticism is not the issue. Nobody really knows, but that tells us nothing. What matters is what one believes, and the reasons why or why not.

And yet 'agnostic' is so often used as a 'belief - position'. Which is a real one that actually relates to where one is on the road from belief to non -belief or the other way (1). Irreligious Christianity, Deism and then atheism being one way. Being talked into sortagod -belief by evidence (like Anthony Flew) is the way to irreligious theism. I have seen other atheists converted but for political reasons rather than any real evidence.

Which is what my post was about. The non -believer that hates atheists for political reasons. We know that Religion is massively mixed up with politics and it popped up just now with someone blaming 'the left' for social inequality (I left that one alone as I detest politics and its' divisiveness). And it is a thing I found only in the US - political dislike of atheism, because it is seen as 'Liberal'. This just doesn't happen in Europe. The squabble is between religion and irreligion, and politics (though the political preference is always there) doesn't come into the debate. In the US, is IS the debate.

(1) didn't want to do a footnote, but I must. This is Nothing to do with agnosticism as a knowledge position, but the name is confused with a sliding scale on the belief -position. So it's not agnosticism, but I know what they mean. (usually deism or irreligious theism). This is what Dawkins means by 'strong and weak atheism scale 1 - 10 which relates to this sliding scale of buy in or sell out. I don't care for it, but then while Dawkins is a hell of an evolutionist, he really isn't too sound on actual atheism.

P.s :D it is also a very clever dirty trick on the part of Theist apologists - pretend that atheism is an extreme, Dogmatic, faith -based total denial of any possibility of the god -claim (which is actually not the logical position of atheism). Thus the faith -based God -belief of the Theists looks at least as valid, and 'agnosticism' which (I gather) is very receptive to the idea of a god is portrayed as the more reasonable position on the claim. Which as you correctly pointed out is not really the logical position at all, let alone a reasonable one. One either believes or one does not. Quantum indeterminacy does not operate in logic.

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Re: Some of my worst friends are agnostics

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Post by Tcg »

help3434 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:33 pm
I very strongly disagree. There are uncountable levels of belief or doubt that one can have on any given assertion. Do you believe that my right hand has five fingers.
There are only two answers to this question.

- Yes, I believe.

- No, I don't.

Where are the "uncountable levels of belief or doubt" you claim? Can one partially believe you have five fingers on your right hand? Can one sort of doubt you do?


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