WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

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POI
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WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #1

Post by POI »

I've been debating apologists, pastors, ministers, theists, and others, for a few years now. As I had already suspected, and continue to confirm for myself, is that no amount of logical argumentation later sways one's decision to the opponent's "side". This goes for both theists and atheists alike...

I've delved into the 'psychology of believe', in the passed. However, these topics below look to be my biggest 'findings' thus far, as to why so many believe....

- Most are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of (type 1 errors). We all commit them BTW.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of geography.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to early indoctrination. - It later becomes difficult to shake this early indoctrinated core belief, even if the evidence later suggests otherwise to this recipient.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the notion of 'experiencing god speaking to them' at one point or many.
- (Please add your reason(s) here if you feel I've missed some key topics)

I feel it's safe to assume that we will always have more god believers, verses 'atheists'. Apologetics, though fun to debate, hardly ever IS the reason someone becomes a 'god believer'. "It's been said that logic and reason is not what brought someone to 'god'. Hence, why would you suspect logic and reason could sway such away from god?"

One last thing, before I pose the question(s) for examination...

I was in a heated debate, with a church pastor, about all things... slavery. In the middle, he stopped and asked me.... "Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit?" For which I answered in honesty.... "Though I have had experiences in the passed, for which I cannot fully explain, I do not know whether or not it was me speaking to myself, or if there was the presence of something else, for which was not me." He paused, looked at me, as if he felt sorry for me, and stated... "Okay, this conversation is over." I asked why. He stated that God exists, and He attempts to speak to all of us. If you do not hear Him, this is your fault. I then pointed out that many, around the globe, feel they have communicated with god(s), but also differing god(s) than (yours). He was already done, and just continued to no longer engage, as if he just felt pity for me.

Again, seems all roads, with Christians, seemingly often times leads to Romans 1. Anywho, moving along... Question(s) for debate:

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:34 am ...
1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?
1. I think I have always thought God is real. But, only after I was child it has been questioned, which is why I have thought, why do I believe and more importantly, what exactly I believe. Main reason why I believe in God is the Bible and that world exists as told in the Bible.

2. I think it is open to debate. If this world would not exist, or if Bible would not exist, that could make me to reject the belief. For me faith means loyalty, not belief. And I want to be faithful/loyal to God, because I think He and His teachings are good. For me Bible is mostly about right understanding, and righteousness, not matter of belief. For example idea to love others is in my opinion good and right and that is why I want to do so, not because of some belief. Believing in God's existence is not in my opinion the point, being righteous is.

3. My reason to be hear is to answer questions and also to show that there is also other possibilities than the ones atheists give. I think atheists are often misleading, which is very disturbing to me. I have no problem if people don't believe, I just hope they make the choice with good truthful information.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:34 am I've been debating apologists, pastors, ministers, theists, and others, for a few years now. As I had already suspected, and continue to confirm for myself, is that no amount of logical argumentation later sways one's decision to the opponent's "side". This goes for both theists and atheists alike...

I've delved into the 'psychology of believe', in the passed. However, these topics below look to be my biggest 'findings' thus far, as to why so many believe....

- Most are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of (type 1 errors). We all commit them BTW.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the topic of geography.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to early indoctrination. - It later becomes difficult to shake this early indoctrinated core belief, even if the evidence later suggests otherwise to this recipient.
- Many are god believers, and may always be god believers, due to the notion of 'experiencing god speaking to them' at one point or many.
- (Please add your reason(s) here if you feel I've missed some key topics)

I feel it's safe to assume that we will always have more god believers, verses 'atheists'. Apologetics, though fun to debate, hardly ever IS the reason someone becomes a 'god believer'. "It's been said that logic and reason is not what brought someone to 'god'. Hence, why would you suspect logic and reason could sway such away from god?"

One last thing, before I pose the question(s) for examination...

I was in a heated debate, with a church pastor, about all things... slavery. In the middle, he stopped and asked me.... "Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit?" For which I answered in honesty.... "Though I have had experiences in the passed, for which I cannot fully explain, I do not know whether or not it was me speaking to myself, or if there was the presence of something else, for which was not me." He paused, looked at me, as if he felt sorry for me, and stated... "Okay, this conversation is over." I asked why. He stated that God exists, and He attempts to speak to all of us. If you do not hear Him, this is your fault. I then pointed out that many, around the globe, feel they have communicated with god(s), but also differing god(s) than (yours). He was already done, and just continued to no longer engage, as if he just felt pity for me.

Again, seems all roads, with Christians, seemingly often times leads to Romans 1. Anywho, moving along... Question(s) for debate:

1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?
When I was a believer, I would have answered as follows:
1) Because that's what I was taught to believe, told to believe. I wasn't given the chance to experience other beliefs much, if at all, so it's all I knew
2) I'd said NO, nothing could have shook my faith. But internally, I knew I was on shaky ground at the very least.
3) I came here after I de-converted so....yeah.....
Now:
1) Same as #1 prior
2) I don't have christian faith, but I try to be open to new ideas and concepts from all sides
3) Because people who claim to be something often times tells more about them and their 'thing' than the 'thing' itself does.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #4

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:32 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:34 am ...
1. Would you mind giving us the MAIN reason you believe? Is it one of the topics above, or other? If you need elaboration on any above, please ask...
2. Is your current belief open for actual debate? Meaning, could ANYTHING shake your faith? If not, why not?
3. Why are you here, hanging out in the apologetics forums? Are you here to convert atheists, or other? On a side note, I suspect apologetics is not what brings Christians to Christianity; so why would you expect different for others?
1. I think I have always thought God is real. But, only after I was child it has been questioned, which is why I have thought, why do I believe and more importantly, what exactly I believe. Main reason why I believe in God is the Bible and that world exists as told in the Bible.

2. I think it is open to debate. If this world would not exist, or if Bible would not exist, that could make me to reject the belief. For me faith means loyalty, not belief. And I want to be faithful/loyal to God, because I think He and His teachings are good. For me Bible is mostly about right understanding, and righteousness, not matter of belief. For example idea to love others is in my opinion good and right and that is why I want to do so, not because of some belief. Believing in God's existence is not in my opinion the point, being righteous is.

3. My reason to be hear is to answer questions and also to show that there is also other possibilities than the ones atheists give. I think atheists are often misleading, which is very disturbing to me. I have no problem if people don't believe, I just hope they make the choice with good truthful information.
1. Okay, so indoctrination essentially. Fair enough...

2. Say you were raised in India, as a Hindu, and the justification was the Rig Veda. Does this sound like a 'justified belief' ---- because the Rig Veda exists? And say you think the Rig Veda only preaches 'good' things?

Further, you think all of the Bible's teachings are 'good'? Really?

3. Your goal here is to challenge atheistic ideas?

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #5

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We knew that it wasn't really on evidence but on Faith and evidence and logic is just dismissed (didn't we see it just now - 'science could have misinterpreted' - or words to that effect), and it seems that discussion is pointless. But the fact is that a lot of atheists used to believe and somehow they reasoned their way out. The Faithful would like us to believe that nobody would ever change their mind and have us give up. We must never give up.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm 1. Okay, so indoctrination essentially. Fair enough...
I don't think anyone told me what I should believe.
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm3. Your goal here is to challenge atheistic ideas?
I would rather say, my goal is to help people to know and understand what the Bible tells.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #7

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:45 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm 1. Okay, so indoctrination essentially. Fair enough...
I don't think anyone told me what I should believe.
Are you saying that you were never exposed to any religious practices and concepts in your formative years? It would be a rare thing indeed for that to be the case. Once ideas are instilled into uncritical minds it becomes hard to sort out later what was the result of reasoning from what was inculcated in childhood.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #8

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:45 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm 1. Okay, so indoctrination essentially. Fair enough...
I don't think anyone told me what I should believe.
I too was a product of indoctrination. Many go about their lives, continuing to believe what they were raised within. Some continue in the belief, some later fall away.

I can tell you why I later fell away.

I might also ask why you have not fell away? And the first question of honesty would be... Are the reason(s) based more-so on logic or emotion?
1213 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:45 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm3. Your goal here is to challenge atheistic ideas?
I would rather say, my goal is to help people to know and understand what the Bible tells.
I feel I'm pretty well versed in what the Bible expresses. If I keep reading it more and more, will this then somehow make it true? Now just replace the (Bible) with (The Hobbit). (i.e.):

I feel I'm pretty well versed in what (the Hobbit) expresses. If I keep reading it more and more, will this then somehow make it true?

Many of us here already 'know what the Bible tells'. Does this make it true? Or, do you instead have to somehow 'prove' that what the Bible tells, is true? You can start with all the assertions in Genesis, and work your way forward :) (Kind of rhetorical here)....

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #9

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:08 pm I too was a product of indoctrination.

Interesting, I don't think I am, for example because there is no one who would have done that to me.
POI wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:08 pmI might also ask why you have not fell away? And the first question of honesty would be... Are the reason(s) based more-so on logic or emotion?
Fell away from what? Belief that it is good to love others? Belief that God is real? I have no intelligent reason to believe God is not real. However, belief in God's existence in my opinion is not crucial, after all, by what the Bible tells, even demons believe it.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

For me it is more matter of understanding, I think it is the best and most reasonable explanation for this world and the Bible to exist.
POI wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:08 pm I feel I'm pretty well versed in what the Bible expresses. If I keep reading it more and more, will this then somehow make it true?


Sorry, I have difficulties to believe you. But, I don't claim it makes it true. I hope people can understand it better. My goal is not make anyone to believe. My goal is to help people to understand.
POI wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:08 pm I feel I'm pretty well versed in what (the Hobbit) expresses. If I keep reading it more and more, will this then somehow make it true?
It was never meant to be anything more than children's story, so I assume that reading it more, would just help you to understand it better.

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Re: WHY Do You REALLY Believe?

Post #10

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:48 pm
1213 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:45 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm 1. Okay, so indoctrination essentially. Fair enough...
I don't think anyone told me what I should believe.
Are you saying that you were never exposed to any religious practices and concepts in your formative years? ...
By what I remember, I believed in God before anything about such matters was taught to me. But, obviously I have heard of God when I was very young. However, hearing something doesn't make anyone believer, otherwise you also would be a believer?

I don't think I have any belief because of indoctrination or inculcating. One reason why I think so is for example that when I was young 10-13, some religious people said that "smoking is a sin". It was actually repeatedly said, I think also by atheistic people. My dad smoked, so I was little worried, but then I decided to read the Bible, does it really say so. This means, I have heard of many things, but I don't think I believe anything because of indoctrination.

I think indoctrination is not good, that is why I think it is wrong when small children are indoctrinated by "culture Marxists" for example with ideas of "climate change" and lgbtsts... or what ever that is...

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