Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

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JoeyKnothead
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Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 7 here:
JehovahsWitness wrote: We have multiple written records of verifiable evidence of the awsome acts of YHWH (Jehovah) the God of the bible. Acts performed before hundreds, sometimes thousands of eye-witnesses such as the parting of the Red Sea, providing of manna in the desert, the test on mount Carmel, as well as countless miracles performed before and/or experienced by witnesses.
For debate:

1. Please offer some means to confirm these alleged events occurred.

2. Please offer some means to confirm there were hundreds, or thousands of witnesses to these alleged events.

Folks're reminded that in this section of the site the Bible ain't considered authoritative.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #2

Post by Miles »

.


What interests me is the "verifiable evidence" of the awesome acts of . . . the God of the bible." And in as much as they exist as "multiple written records," they shouldn't be difficult to produce.

So my question is; What ya got, JehovahsWitness? .......... Ball's in your court. .......... Let's see the verifiable evidence you speak of.


.
Last edited by Miles on Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #3

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1]

All those witnesses are not much use unless we have their verified written testimonies. What we have instead are unverified claims that there were witnesses. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

brunumb wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:13 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1]

All those witnesses are not much use unless we have their verified written testimonies. What we have instead are unverified claims that there were witnesses. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.
I just wanna see if there's hook enough to hang more'n a roll of toilet paper.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #5

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I've always been intrigued by the variation of the claims of not only how many miracles there were but how many people saw them. John just mentions the Big Four. the magical wine, the healing at a distance, the loaves and fishes (I suppose) though it may be the healing of the paralytic, and the raising of Lazarus. The synoptics don't have the wedding at Cana but Matthew and Luke have the healing at a distance (Mark doesn't as I recall), the raising of Jairus' daughter, the healing of the Blind man at Jericho (though John has a blind man healed in Jerusalem, but then he has the man pick up his bed and walk in Jerusalem, too, not in Galilee as in the synoptics.

But enough of the major miracles used on a pick -and mix and stick in you gospel wherever you like, but the supposed crowds that followed Jesus around, to listen and witness the healings. Despite the assurance that the Disciples had the gift to understand the parables and the others (Jews) would not as God didn't intend them to be saved, we'd suppose that Some listened, understood, turned and were saved. Well, some had to provide the 500 or more that saw the resurrected Jesus at once (presumably during the Jesus lectures in the 40 days after the resurrection before he ascended (end of luke, beginning of Acts).

But there we are. Why no mention of this in the histories? Nothing in Philo (though he mentions Pilate). Doubtfully in Josephus as the Flavian Testament is partially fraudulent and probably all of it. Suetonius is doubtfully anything to do with Jesus at all. And I only credit Tacitus with at least reporting the claims of the Christians - their leader executed by Pilate - which I'm prepared to believe anyway.

But this wonder -worker whose fame and report spread from Tyre ( rebuilt even bigger than before and never mind prophecy) to the Decapolis and nobody (other than Christian apologists writing after Bible - writing remote from any such events) mentions the miracles and healings - so much that a fake bio had to be slipped into Josephus to rectify that 'Omission;.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm From Post 7 here:
JehovahsWitness wrote: We have multiple written records of verifiable evidence of the awsome acts of YHWH (Jehovah) the God of the bible.
It's quite clear the claimant doesn't understand what qualifies as verifiable evidence.


Tcg
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #7

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Tcg wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:54 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm From Post 7 here:
JehovahsWitness wrote: We have multiple written records of verifiable evidence of the awsome acts of YHWH (Jehovah) the God of the bible.
It's quite clear the claimant doesn't understand what qualifies as verifiable evidence.
Very much.

I reckon some folks consider these kinds of challenges to be trolling, but the claim/s presented in the OP are so often presented with such an assuredness that it kinda irks me.

Of course there won't be the first theist to come to the thread to put any truth to it. It just amuses me to see how some'll preach proud, then cower in the corners when challenged.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #8

Post by bjs1 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm 2. Please offer some means to confirm there were hundreds, or thousands of witnesses to these alleged events.
For events prior to 1826, be it biblical or otherwise, there are only two ways to confirm that hundreds of people were witnesses.

1). Accept the written records of the event.

2). Build a time machine.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #9

Post by benchwarmer »

bjs1 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:43 pm For events prior to 1826, be it biblical or otherwise, there are only two ways to confirm that hundreds of people were witnesses.

1). Accept the written records of the event.

2). Build a time machine.
Perhaps, but there are ways to increase confidence in the claim of multiple witnesses:

1) Statements from the witnesses themselves. These should be independent and not contain any obvious copying from one to another. They should name themselves as the author of the witness statement and details on when the witnessing happened. Example: I, Joe Blow, on the 3rd day of summer harvest in the 5th year of king Doofus, saw a purple blimp in the sky.

2) Statements from non-witnesses that detail who some of the witnesses were. Statements from (1) will back this up. Example: Many people saw a purple blimp in the sky on the 3rd day of summer harvest. Among them were Joe Blow, Mary Carry, and John Song.

3) Archeological (or other physical evidence) that supports the above (1) and (2). Example: The town where Joe Blow and Mary Cary claim to be from has been excavated and discovered to be within the kingdom of king Doofus and in the right time frame based on various dating methods.

Is it a slam dunk? No, of course not, no history really is. However, the above is far better than dependent, anonymous claims about there being witnesses.

This always seems to lead to the same type of apologetic "Well, how do you know Julius Caesar was real?!". The appropriate answer, of course, is that we don't know with 100% certainty, but all written and other physical evidence seems to corroborate the claim.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #10

Post by JoeyKnothead »

bjs1 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:43 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm 2. Please offer some means to confirm there were hundreds, or thousands of witnesses to these alleged events.
For events prior to 1826, be it biblical or otherwise, there are only two ways to confirm that hundreds of people were witnesses.

1). Accept the written records of the event.

2). Build a time machine.
That's gotta make the claimant's task quite difficult.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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