Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

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Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 7 here:
JehovahsWitness wrote: We have multiple written records of verifiable evidence of the awsome acts of YHWH (Jehovah) the God of the bible. Acts performed before hundreds, sometimes thousands of eye-witnesses such as the parting of the Red Sea, providing of manna in the desert, the test on mount Carmel, as well as countless miracles performed before and/or experienced by witnesses.
For debate:

1. Please offer some means to confirm these alleged events occurred.

2. Please offer some means to confirm there were hundreds, or thousands of witnesses to these alleged events.

Folks're reminded that in this section of the site the Bible ain't considered authoritative.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm
bjs1 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:43 pm For events prior to 1826, be it biblical or otherwise, there are only two ways to confirm that hundreds of people were witnesses.

1). Accept the written records of the event.

2). Build a time machine.
Perhaps, but there are ways to increase confidence in the claim of multiple witnesses:

1) Statements from the witnesses themselves. These should be independent and not contain any obvious copying from one to another. They should name themselves as the author of the witness statement and details on when the witnessing happened. Example: I, Joe Blow, on the 3rd day of summer harvest in the 5th year of king Doofus, saw a purple blimp in the sky.

2) Statements from non-witnesses that detail who some of the witnesses were. Statements from (1) will back this up. Example: Many people saw a purple blimp in the sky on the 3rd day of summer harvest. Among them were Joe Blow, Mary Carry, and John Song.

3) Archeological (or other physical evidence) that supports the above (1) and (2). Example: The town where Joe Blow and Mary Cary claim to be from has been excavated and discovered to be within the kingdom of king Doofus and in the right time frame based on various dating methods.

Is it a slam dunk? No, of course not, no history really is. However, the above is far better than dependent, anonymous claims about there being witnesses.

This always seems to lead to the same type of apologetic "Well, how do you know Julius Caesar was real?!". The appropriate answer, of course, is that we don't know with 100% certainty, but all written and other physical evidence seems to corroborate the claim.
This is why Extra -Biblical accounts are a biggie in apologetics. On my former board, we used to say 'Three certain things, Death, Taxes and "Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny, Thallia, Phleghon..." The emphasis of the historical reliability of the Gospels was banged away at time after time. I don't deny that they Look convincingly based on real events and it's possible that they are. I think a surprising amount of the Jesus -story could be true. But of course there will be doubts about the walking on the water. the Gadarene swine and - of course - the resurrection.

But at the risk of wearing out my hobby -horse, much more than just miracle - claims look dubious under examination. The Nativity (even without the mobile star) falls apart, and the resurrection gets dragged down with it. After that, the death of Judas, the penitent thief, the murder -attempt at Nazareth, the sermon on the mount (oh yes ;) ) and indeed the raising of Lazarus, the trial -accounts and pretty much the rest of the discrepant stuff goes down the well like it was all chained together.

That's why I said before that we can disregard Luke's bunch of washerwomen, and say that only the 2 Marys is credible (if anything) and we have to doubt these other airy claims of crowds of listeners treading on each other and consider whether the hidden hints beneath the Oz -screen of Christian overpainting that Jesus' mission was actually rather secretive.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #12

Post by JoeyKnothead »

I just don't understand why the theists ain't come flocking in with evidence.

I'm starting to think this bible stuff ain't true.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #13

Post by nobspeople »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:38 am I just don't understand why the theists ain't come flocking in with evidence.

I'm starting to think this bible stuff ain't true.
Sometimes people inflate standards to make it sound more impressive than they are. This is likely the case here. If it's said to have 'hundreds' there is probably a couple dozen, if that. Still, even if there are a couple dozen that can be shown to be true and accurate, that's important - inflating the numbers shouldn't negate that. But, it seems even 'a couple dozen' isn't holding up the standard.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #14

Post by JoeyKnothead »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:52 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:38 am I just don't understand why the theists ain't come flocking in with evidence.

I'm starting to think this bible stuff ain't true.
Sometimes people inflate standards to make it sound more impressive than they are. This is likely the case here. If it's said to have 'hundreds' there is probably a couple dozen, if that. Still, even if there are a couple dozen that can be shown to be true and accurate, that's important - inflating the numbers shouldn't negate that. But, it seems even 'a couple dozen' isn't holding up the standard.
:drunk:
I'd be impressed if one could be put forth.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #15

Post by Wootah »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm
This always seems to lead to the same type of apologetic "Well, how do you know Julius Caesar was real?!". The appropriate answer, of course, is that we don't know with 100% certainty, but all written and other physical evidence seems to corroborate the claim.
All Christians ask is that you apply the same standard to historical evidence for Jesus and the Bible.

That's the end of this thread and now off to the thread you need to make on 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

Can I suggest you create it in the philosophy forum where it belongs?
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #16

Post by benchwarmer »

Wootah wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm
This always seems to lead to the same type of apologetic "Well, how do you know Julius Caesar was real?!". The appropriate answer, of course, is that we don't know with 100% certainty, but all written and other physical evidence seems to corroborate the claim.
All Christians ask is that you apply the same standard to historical evidence for Jesus and the Bible.
I do apply the same standards. What extra-biblical evidence do we have for Jesus? This question is somewhat rhetorical as we all know what's available and what's not. Though feel free to surprise us.
Wootah wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:38 pm That's the end of this thread and now off to the thread you need to make on 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

Can I suggest you create it in the philosophy forum where it belongs?
I'm not sure what you are on about. This thread is about claims of 'many' witnesses. When we drill down, we see that's all we have when it comes to these witnesses. Just claims that they exist. No witness statements from these witnesses or even names of the witnesses from those claiming they exist. That has been the entire point.

If you wish to have a philosophical debate on evidence, feel free, I'm not interested at the moment.

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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #17

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:38 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:32 pm
This always seems to lead to the same type of apologetic "Well, how do you know Julius Caesar was real?!". The appropriate answer, of course, is that we don't know with 100% certainty, but all written and other physical evidence seems to corroborate the claim.
All Christians ask is that you apply the same standard to historical evidence for Jesus and the Bible.
This thread seeks to find that "historical evidence", in the form of hundreds or thousands of "eyewitnesses" to the events presented in the OP.

So far, it's been a sad affair.
Wootah wrote: That's the end of this thread and now off to the thread you need to make on 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.
Indeed. It's the end of trying to find truth in Christian claims, when can't none of em be shown to be truthful.
Can I suggest you create it in the philosophy forum where it belongs?
Is your OP maker broke?
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #18

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #17]

Benchwarmer accepts the evidence for Julius. So really you are debating him now. Not that I expect you will.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #19

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:01 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #17]

Benchwarmer accepts the evidence for Julius. So really you are debating him now. Not that I expect you will.
Comments are open to any and all who wish to reply.

I have every confidence the reader will see that my comments were addressed to you.

And that your reply here is the best ya could do, and that they oughtn pick on ya too much about it.
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Re: Hundreds, Thousands of Eyewitnesses

Post #20

Post by Wootah »

Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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