"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" So asks the author of Hebrews 1:5. The argument being made is that Jesus, the supposed "Messiah", is higher than the angels because he has been given a greater name.
If this were to be refuted, where would the reader be expected to look for such refutation? The reader would look in scripture, right? If all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16), that would be the go-to source.
"I shall be his father and he shall be my son." So is Jehovah quoted by the author of 2 Samuel 7:14. Who is the son in this verse whom the father is claiming? Solomon.
Applying the logic of Hebrews 1:5, when did Jehovah say at any time, "I will be his father and he will be my son" referring to the Messiah, since it's generally agreed that the Messiah wasn't Solomon?
(Note: trying to fit Solomon in as a "forerunner of the Messiah" doesn't work, since a messianic "forerunner" would still be a mere human and thus couldn't be given a name higher than that of the angels.)
"I shall be his father...."
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #11By quoting the promise made to Solomon at 2 Sam 7:14.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:46 pm
How is the author saying anything about a "Solomon style promise" when he makes no mention of Solomon?
That "Solomon style promise" and nothing to do with angels, it and to do with becoming his"Father". What that "Father promise" would mean for each would be different, but it would be the same type of promise (to become a father)Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:46 pm
Did being given that "more excellent name" make Solomon better than the angels?
To illustrate: A man adopts two children a boy and then girl. He makes the same promise to both, that although not being their biological father he will love and treat them both as if he were. Does this mean he will treat them both exactly the same? What if both children got married but, according to tradition, he only walked his DAUGHTER down the aisle ? Has he broken his promise to his son.
In the same way, the point is, God made a promise regarding Solomon, the writer of Hebrews points to the same type of promise made regarding Jesus, the Messiah. The promise was NOT to be made higher than angels, but to become a Father to them. How Jehovah would act would not be identical but the promise (to act like a Father) would apply to both.
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #12Really? One would have to be really gullible if they were to accept that this example illustrates how the promise can be 'harmonised'.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:21 amTo illustrate: A man adopts two children a boy and then girl. He makes the same promise to both, that although not being their biological father he will love and treat them both as if he were. Does this mean he will treat them both exactly the same? What if both children got married but, according to tradition, he only walked his DAUGHTER down the aisle ? Has he broken his promise to his son.
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #13[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #11]
A man adopts an apprentice. By the adoption, the apprentice is now the man's son and inheritor. What "more excellent" name has the apprentice been given through inheritance? "Son". That's the implication in the Hebrews passage. The focus is on sonhood.
Here's another illustration:To illustrate: A man adopts two children a boy and then girl. He makes the same promise to both, that although not being their biological father he will love and treat them both as if he were. Does this mean he will treat them both exactly the same? What if both children got married but, according to tradition, he only walked his DAUGHTER down the aisle ? Has he broken his promise to his son.
A man adopts an apprentice. By the adoption, the apprentice is now the man's son and inheritor. What "more excellent" name has the apprentice been given through inheritance? "Son". That's the implication in the Hebrews passage. The focus is on sonhood.
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #14Do all sons have the same inheritance? Since Hebrews is quoting the same words to another "son", the question is pertinent. Your objection seems to be since Solomon had an inheritance as a son, why would the other son (the Messiah) get more?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:36 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #11]Here's another illustration:To illustrate: A man adopts two children a boy and then girl. He makes the same promise to both, that although not being their biological father he will love and treat them both as if he were. Does this mean he will treat them both exactly the same? What if both children got married but, according to tradition, he only walked his DAUGHTER down the aisle ? Has he broken his promise to his son.
A man adopts an apprentice. By the adoption, the apprentice is now the man's son and inheritor. What "more excellent" name has the apprentice been given through inheritance? "Son". That's the implication in the Hebrews passage. The focus is on sonhood.
Biblically that is just how it went, sons did not get the same inheritance.
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #15By what I see, they are not exactly the same:Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" So asks the author of Hebrews 1:5.....
..."I shall be his father and he shall be my son." So is Jehovah quoted by the author of 2 Samuel 7:14. Who is the son in this verse whom the father is claiming? Solomon. ...
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:5
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:14
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #16[Replying to 1213 in post #15]
This is another point to bring up, since it would have to be applied to the Messiah as well via Hebrews 1:5, but I've just been focusing on the "better than the angels" issue in this thread.If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:14
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #17Why? Did Hebrews apply the second part 2 Samuel 7:14 to Jesus?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:38 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #15]This is another point to bring up, since it would have to be applied to the Messiah as well via Hebrews 1:5, but I've just been focusing on the "better than the angels" issue in this thread.If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:14
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #18If the first part of 2 Sam. 7:14 applies to Jesus ( Hebrews 1:5) and 2 Sam. 7:14 is scripture (2 Timothy 3:16) and scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35), then the second part of 2 Sam. 7:14 must apply to Jesus as well.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:06 amWhy? Did Hebrews apply the second part 2 Samuel 7:14 to Jesus?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:38 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #15]This is another point to bring up, since it would have to be applied to the Messiah as well via Hebrews 1:5, but I've just been focusing on the "better than the angels" issue in this thread.If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:14
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #19This leads to question, why should 2 Sam. 7 be about Jesus?Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:53 am If the first part of 2 Sam. 7:14 applies to Jesus ( Hebrews 1:5) and 2 Sam. 7:14 is scripture (2 Timothy 3:16) and scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35), then the second part of 2 Sam. 7:14 must apply to Jesus as well.
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Re: "I shall be his father...."
Post #20Says WHO ?!Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:53 am If the first part of 2 Sam. 7:14 applies to Jesus...then the second part ...must apply to Jesus as well.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8