Excommunication

[nobspeople]

Why would a church excommunicate someone on purpose? Doesn't the person deserve all the chances to 'get it right'? Why does a church get a chance to tell someone 'No, you're no longer welcomed here - a place that's welcoming for everyone'?

If excommunicated in your church, does this mean they can't join another church of the same faith? Is there some type of list all these churches have to prevent such a thing?

Would jesus approve of this practice? He's said to have dealt with prostitutes and even demons. Are these people that are excommunicated worse than prostitutes and demons? So bad even jesus can't save them?

[nobspeople]

I've been at churches who welcomed satan worshippers (their term, not mine); I still remember the looks they got by church members as they sat in the front row.
But I suspect it depends on the church, their social standing in the community, their conviction and dedication to their god and its message.
Some churches are good like that.
Some churches are nothing more than a social club.
I've attended both types

I see no reference to child abuse in your response. ....

My question for all the critics here is : If somebody was a proven serial unrepentant child abuser, and as a consequence expulsed / excommunicated/ shunned from a church community, would you be critical of their decision?

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Very astute. Is child abuse a worse sin that worshipping a false god - the 'anti-god, as it were?
That said, my grandfather is a retired baptist preacher. He was physically and emotionally abusive to not only my father by his wife. He was allowed to retire without issue
Hope that helps your POV

[JehovahsWitness]

I see no reference to child abuse in your response. ....

My question for all the critics here is : If somebody was a proven serial unrepentant child abuser, and as a consequence expulsed / excommunicated/ shunned from a church community, would you be critical of their decision?

Very astute. Is child abuse a worse sin that worshipping a false god - the 'anti-god, as it were?

Without grading child abuse (or delving into you family history) can you answer the question?


Here it is a third time. ...

My question for all the critics here is : If somebody was a proven serial unrepentant child abuser, and as a consequence expulsed / excommunicated/ shunned from a church community, would you be critical of their decision?

[nobspeople]

I see no reference to child abuse in your response. ....

My question for all the critics here is : If somebody was a proven serial unrepentant child abuser, and as a consequence expulsed / excommunicated/ shunned from a church community, would you be critical of their decision?

Very astute. Is child abuse a worse sin that worshipping a false god - the 'anti-god, as it were?

Without grading child abuse or delving into you family history can you answer the question?
[/quote]

I answered your question from my own experience.
To clarify: my grandfather was an unrepentant child and spousal abuser and allowed to lead his church for decades (I only attended his church once or twice that I can remember back 'n-the-day')
Other churches continue to allow child abusers (many RCC churches).
I'm unsure how that's not relevant to your question.
I'm also unsure why you think one sin is more egregious than another.

[bjs1]

Within orthodox Christianity excommunications (or whatever name it goes by) is almost exclusively done after the person has had many chances to “get it right.”...

Jesus says 'seventy times seven' when talking about forgiveness. I find it odd and somewhat distasteful that a church, as an organization, can decide when to limit the forgiveness of others. Being as they can't see the future, it seems they're taking the stance that forgiveness isn't limitless, which seems contrary to what jesus taught; as if the church somehow knows when a person's 'at their limit'.

The context of that command was if your bothers sins against and then “comes back to you and says, “I repent,” forgive him.” (Luke 17:4). There is no limit to forgiveness for those who want to be forgiven. In Matthew 18 (where he also spoke about forgiveness) Jesus placed the only limitation on forgiveness: that the person has to want it. Forgiveness cannot be forced upon someone who do not wish to be forgiven.

Or maybe they've checked their bank accounts and know they're 'not good for it' any longer?

?????

In regards to having 'a list' or not, it seems, if one doesn't exist, the 'excommunication' process is largely for show as anyone could simply 'go to another church' of the same denomination.

Perhaps. The goal of such excommunication is to encourage a person to repent so that the person can be forgiven. People who are committed to doing things their own way, even if that way is sinful, will probably be able to find a church that does not care or does not know about their actions. So, to take an earlier example, if a man wants to cheat on his wife and does not want to change then there is only so much a church can do.

Might I ask: If churches did nothing about sinful behavior, would you then be saying, “The problem with Christianity is that churches don’t call people out for doing bad things”?

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

So tax professionals aren't 'church material'?!?
Kidding aside, no where in that does it say 'excommunicate them'.

Is the language what matters most? Jesus told his followers to treat an unrepentant person like those outside of the church community. Excommunicate means to remove someone from a community.

Which, if true, is fine, I suppose. But not very god-like. Then again, what is these days? Child molesting? Gossip? Secretly gay clergy? Tax issues? Preachers rolling in Bentleys and flying in their private jets?

It is interesting that in one post you both attack Christians for un-godlike behavior (child molesting), and attack Christians for trying stop un-godlike behavior (through excommunication).

[Tcg]

One question for all the critics here: I somebody was a proven serial unrepentant child abuser, expulsed from a church community, would you ask the same question ?

JW

The question I'd ask is - Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses allow sexual abuse of children and others to continue when they know it's taking place?

'There was no reprimand, nothing changed': Survivors criticise Jehovah's Witness elders for failing to act over child sexual abuse claims

The Jehovah's Witnesses church says its elders "endeavour to comply with secular laws about reporting allegations of abuse" - but survivors say that does not necessarily translate to helping the authorities.

Sky News has spoken to several abuse victims who claim there is a culture within the Jehovah's Witnesses that fails those looking for help and puts others at risk.

Problems include a failure to report allegations to the police, and a system that requires high levels of proof from the victim, but also allows a repentant abuser to remain within the congregation - at times without other members being told what they have done.

Emily was sexually abused from the age of four - but when she reported the crime to elders in 1990, they did not call the police and told her she had made it all up.

https://news.sky.com/story/there-was-no ... s-12396672

I'd also ask - Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses blame the victims in these cases?


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

But if people think that someone doesn’t live by the rules the group has, I think it should not be a problem to excommunicate him.

Exactly, if child abuse, murder and other serious problems violate the standards of the group expulsion is the biblical* option. No society tolerates all behaviours irrespective of the effect on others, why should Christians?




JW

* NOTE :

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. [...] See LINK for FULL quote: viewtopic.php?p=1050358#p1050358

I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINK for details: viewtopic.php?p=1058158#p1058158

[Tcg]

* NOTE :

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. [...] See LINK for FULL quote:

No need. I'll provide it here given that when one sentence is stripped from its context the full meaning of the quote is lost:

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. The Bible however is not considered authoritative here. If you intend to add an argument that is considered authoritative here, you'll need to provide something more than and other than the Bible.


Tcg

[Tcg]

Exactly, if child abuse, murder and other serious problems violate the standards of the group expulsion is the biblical* option. No society tolerates all behaviours irrespective of the effect on others, why should Christians?

JW

If expulsion is the "biblical option" for those who commit child abuse, one has to wonder why some Christian groups don't exercise it:

"Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse

Positions of responsibility

The January 1, 1997 issue of The Watchtower stated, "For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service."[6] Whether or not a child abuser is deemed a "known molester" is left to the discretion of the local branch. The October 1, 2012 letter to elders states, "the branch office, not the local body of elders, determines whether one who has sexually abused a child is considered a known child molester" and adds, "It cannot be said in every case that one who has sexually abused a child could never qualify for privileges of service in the congregation."[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... Discipline"


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

If expulsion is the "biblical option" for those who commit child abuse, one has to wonder why some Christian groups don't exercise it

One has to wonder if expulsion as a "biblical* option is so abhorrent to some, why those same individuals reprimand some Christiian groups for NOT exercising it.








JW

* NOTE :

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. [...] See LINK for details: viewtopic.php?p=1050358#p1050358

I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINK for details: viewtopic.php?p=1058158#p1058158

[Tcg]

If expulsion is the "biblical option" for those who commit child abuse, one has to wonder why some Christian groups don't exercise it

One has to wonder if expulsion as a "biblical* option is so abhorrent to some, why those same individuals reprimand some Christiian groups for NOT exercising it.

Not me. I wonder why JW's claim it is a biblical option and yet don't practice it.

* NOTE :

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. [...] See LINK for details: viewtopic.php?p=1050358#p1050358

No need. I'll provide it here given that when one sentence is stripped from its context the full meaning of the quote is lost:

Of course it is permissible to mention the bible in this sub-forum. The Bible however is not considered authoritative here. If you intend to add an argument that is considered authoritative here, you'll need to provide something more than and other than the Bible.


Tcg