Does god have morals?

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nobspeople
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Does god have morals?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.

This makes me wonder if god is moral?
The quick answer is either yes (normally said by the faithful because that's what they're supposed to say) or no (mostly by 'the others'). But isn't that judging god's actions by human standards?
What if god has its own moral code, different from humanity's? After all, god didn't think it immoral to wipe out a whole city or drown 99.99% of the population (including babies and women in the middle of giving birth - what did those babies do to you, o god?!?!) as well as almost all living land animals. And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.

For discussion:
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #91

Post by Diogenes »

tam wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:41 am Peace to you,
Diogenes wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:23 pm
tam wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:26 pm I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)

I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around....
It certainly is not hard to "wrap one's head around" 'drastic conditions.' We have had them since. The current Russian genocide in Ukraine, for example.
But the flood story is obviously best seen as, and typifies, mythic tales.
See, now you're changing my words.

I said "drastic conditions (things that have NOT happened since)..."
I did not "change your words," I quoted you directly. Given all the horrible atrocities that men have inflicted on others SINCE the myth of the flood, how exactly were things different before? And as I pointed out "God's" horrific act of genocide didn't work. Men started being corrupt immediately after the fictional 'Ark' supposedly came to rest on dry ground. Do you really think that this omniscient and omnipotent 'God' couldn't have figgered out a better way to deal with corruption? Or is that just another one of those absurd 'mysterious ways the Lord works' that we have to accept because we are told to?

If corruption before 'the flood' was different than after, why not just target that? For example, get rid of the 'hybrids' or whatever situation you contend made the antediluvian corruption special.
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #92

Post by tam »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:21 pm
tam wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:41 am Peace to you,
Diogenes wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:23 pm
tam wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:26 pm I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)

I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around....
It certainly is not hard to "wrap one's head around" 'drastic conditions.' We have had them since. The current Russian genocide in Ukraine, for example.
But the flood story is obviously best seen as, and typifies, mythic tales.
See, now you're changing my words.

I said "drastic conditions (things that have NOT happened since)..."
I did not "change your words," I quoted you directly.
Tammy said: Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event.

Diogenes said: It certainly is not hard to "wrap one's head around" 'drastic conditions.' We have had them since.
Given all the horrible atrocities that men have inflicted on others SINCE the myth of the flood, how exactly were things different before?


We have not had Nephilim/their offspring.... or the effects of these living on the earth. These were wiped out in the flood.
If corruption before 'the flood' was different than after, why not just target that? For example, get rid of the 'hybrids' or whatever situation you contend made the antediluvian corruption special.

The flood was required to do that. Water does not destroy, but it does 'bind', imprison. And because water does not destroy (unlike fire that can destroy both body and soul), any person who drowned in the flood can receive a resurrection and also eternal life (not into a world of corruption and terror and fear, but into a world with no mourning, tears, pain, hunger, etc.)


Peace again to you.
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #93

Post by Diogenes »

tam wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:37 pm We have not had Nephilim/their offspring.... or the effects of these living on the earth. These were wiped out in the flood.
That is simply not true. The Bible contradicts you, as I previously cited (Numbers 13), where Moses' spies report, many generations AFTER the flood, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and fall the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

As for your:
The flood was required to do that. Water does not destroy, but it does 'bind', imprison. And because water does not destroy (unlike fire that can destroy both body and soul), any person who drowned in the flood can receive a resurrection and also eternal life (not into a world of corruption and terror and fear, but into a world with no mourning, tears, pain, hunger, etc.)
Where did you pull that from? Death by drowning is different from death by burning? Is this your opinion or does it come from some arcane Bible passage? So if a person is burnt to death, their soul is also destroyed? When you drown you aren't really dead, but dying in a house fire sends you straight to Hell? I suppose that if one is imaginative enough, and ignores scripture, and can choose between thousands of interpretations of theology and the Bible, one can justify anything. But your interpretation certainly seems odd to me.

Doesn't it make more sense and is infinitely more humane to just use lightning bolts to get rid of the Nephilim in Noah's day, rather than drown everyone, including the kittens? And how did these Nephilim get back on Earth for Moses to contend with?
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #94

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Diogenes wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:39 pm
tam wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:37 pm We have not had Nephilim/their offspring.... or the effects of these living on the earth. These were wiped out in the flood.
That is simply not true. The Bible contradicts you, as I previously cited (Numbers 13), where Moses' spies report, many generations AFTER the flood, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and fall the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
I responded to that already.
As for your:
The flood was required to do that. Water does not destroy, but it does 'bind', imprison. And because water does not destroy (unlike fire that can destroy both body and soul), any person who drowned in the flood can receive a resurrection and also eternal life (not into a world of corruption and terror and fear, but into a world with no mourning, tears, pain, hunger, etc.)
Where did you pull that from?


I didn't pull it from anywhere, I learned it... but there are some examples from what is written that can help a person get a sense of it:The lake of fire is the second death, annihilation. Complete destruction, where the person is utterly consumed. Christ also said that a person (body and soul) can be destroyed in 'gehenna' (an example of utter destruction/annihilation that comes from the lake of fire).

Death by drowning is different from death by burning? Is this your opinion or does it come from some arcane Bible passage? So if a person is burnt to death, they soul is also destroyed? So when you drown you aren't really dead, but dying in a house fire sends you straight to Hell?


Of course not. (the whole 'straight to hell' sentence doesn't even make sense, if a person is destroyed, there is nothing left of that person to send to some other place).

I said fire can destroy (not that fire always destroys). Not a house fire, or a camp fire or a fire from a match. But fire such as what comes down from heaven and consumes 'gog and magog'; or the fire from the lake of fire.
Things in Evangelicalville are getting stranger by the minute.
I'm not the one arguing that something is a myth, but the details of the myth can be changed to teach a different 'moral'. You can accept, and/or search/ask for yourself, and/or reject the info about the Nephilm/their offspring. But if 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time' as the reason for the flood, then that IS a drastic event that no one (including yourself I assume) believes has happened since.


From earlier:

IN case it didn't come clear in the previous post, if you are taking the story as a myth, you can't change any part of it. All the parts of a myth are required to make the moral or the point. And 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time" is part of the story.

Granted, if you think the story is real, that the global flood and ark did happen, well, then we can argue the details.



Peace again to you.
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #95

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.
Who said morality is subjective? Morality is not subjective. It only seems subjective when people detach themselves from God. That fact is there is no such thing as morality without a law-giving God. Especially if you are saying that morality is subjective.

Going around killing people on the street wrong?
Is killing babies wrong?
Was Hilter wrong to do what he did?
Was Stalin wrong to do what he did?
Is it wrong to kill animals for food?
Is it wrong to have hundreds of people drink poison?

If you think any to these things are wrong what are you basing your belief on? How are you determining what is right and what is wrong?

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #96

Post by nobspeople »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:06 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.
Who said morality is subjective? Morality is not subjective. It only seems subjective when people detach themselves from God. That fact is there is no such thing as morality without a law-giving God. Especially if you are saying that morality is subjective.

Going around killing people on the street wrong?
Is killing babies wrong?
Was Hilter wrong to do what he did?
Was Stalin wrong to do what he did?
Is it wrong to kill animals for food?
Is it wrong to have hundreds of people drink poison?

If you think any to these things are wrong what are you basing your belief on? How are you determining what is right and what is wrong?

At one point, it was immoral for marriages to include different races. In some places it still may be, but not everywhere.
Morality changes from person to person and from time to time and from location to location. What's moral in one place may not be in another. Thus, it's subjective, depending on the circumstance.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #97

Post by Hawkins »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:14 am Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
This is not true. Morally is globally more or less the same. That's why all jurisdiction systems are more or less the same, such that you don't need to specifically read laws before going to another country. They are so similar to each other and to your conscience that you don't need to read the laws of any country, including your own one, in order not to break them.

Laws are made based on human conscience and morality. There are variances, say, in terms of religions and such. However, they don't vary that much such that you can still safely walk by using your own self-conscience and morality.
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?
Basically, human morality is based on whether an innocent is harmed. It is thus bodily based, or it is about our flesh. God's morality, on the other hand, is based on soul instead of flesh. If a soul is worthy of saving but He didn't then it is against His own morality. In terms of flesh then, everyone dies one way or another. There's not a particular way of dying being more advantageous.

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #98

Post by Tcg »

Hawkins wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:59 pm
This is not true. Morally is globally more or less the same. That's why all jurisdiction systems are more or less the same, such that you don't need to specifically read laws before going to another country. They are so similar to each other and to your conscience that you don't need to read the laws of any country, including your own one, in order not to break them.
Here are two glaring examples that cast doubt of that assertion:

Criminalization of homosexuality

Current status

Further information: LGBT rights by country or territory
In its December 2020 report, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA) found that homosexuality is criminalized in 67 of 193 UN member states and one non-independent jurisdiction, the Cook Islands, while two UN member states, Iraq and Egypt, criminalize it de facto but not in legislation.[97] In at least six UN member states—Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria (only northern Nigeria), Saudi Arabia, and Yemen—it is punishable by death. All of the countries that use the death penalty base it directly or indirectly on sharia law.[98] In 2007, five countries executed someone as a penalty for homosexual acts.[99] In 2020, ILGA named Iran and Saudi Arabia as the only countries in which executions for same-sex activity have reportedly taken place.[100] In other countries, such as Yemen, Somalia, Iraq, and Libya, extrajudicial executions are carried out by militias such as Al-Shabaab, Islamic State or Al-Qaeda.[101] In 2021, Téa Braun of the Human Dignity Trust estimated that more than 71 million LGBT people live in countries where homosexuality is criminalized.[102]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminali ... ent_status

Death Penalty For Drug Offences: Global Overview 2020

The Death Penalty for Drug Offences: Global Overview 2020 found

- There were 30 confirmed executions for drug offences in 2020, down from 116 in 2019. All of the executions took place in 3 countries (China, Iran and Saudi Arabia)

- At least 213 people received a death sentence for drug offences in 2020, up from 183 in 2019.

- Thirty-five countries still retain the death penalty for drug offences.

- There are at least 3,000 people currently on death row for drug offences worldwide.

- Vietnam alone accounted for over a third of all confirmed death sentences for drug offences in 2020.

- As of October 2020, there were 355 people on death row in Indonesia, of which 214 were convicted for drug offences (a 29% increase from 2019).

- Singapore did not carry executions for the first time since 2013.

- Data on the death penalty for drug offences is grossly insufficient, partly due to a lack of information on executions in China and Vietnam (both are reported to routinely execute people for drug offences).

https://www.hri.global/death-penalty-2020
All would be well advised to study the laws of countries they may be traveling to especially considering that execution may be used by some to enforce them.

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #99

Post by Diogenes »

tam wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:01 pm I wrote:
Death by drowning is different from death by burning? Is this your opinion or does it come from some arcane Bible passage? So if a person is burnt to death, they soul is also destroyed? So when you drown you aren't really dead, but dying in a house fire sends you straight to Hell?


Tam:
Of course not. (the whole 'straight to hell' sentence doesn't even make sense, if a person is destroyed, there is nothing left of that person to send to some other place).

I said fire can destroy (not that fire always destroys). Not a house fire, or a camp fire or a fire from a match. But fire such as what comes down from heaven and consumes 'gog and magog'; or the fire from the lake of fire.
OK, so you are claiming a bible reference to show that death by drowning will always leave your soul available, but death by fire can, depending on the needs of your argument, [or the whim of a god] destroy the soul or not?

I'm still looking for actual Bible verses that support possible different outcomes depending on the manner of physical death. I've never heard of this sort of thing before. Is there a Christian denomination that holds this view, or is this a singular view of your own?
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #100

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Hawkins in post #97]
This (morality is highly subjective) is not true.
Yes it is. What's 'right' now may not be right 100 years from now, and may have not been right 100 years ago. Rather or not you consider 'right/wrong' moral is another story, but for many, that's part of morality. What's moral for you may not be for me. That fact alone shows morality is highly subjective.
Morally is globally more or less the same.
That's not in question. 'More or less' doesn't mean 'the same' from the beginning of time until the end of time. Sure, there are fundamentals that may not change, but morality is a lot more than fundamentals.
Laws are made based on human conscience and morality.
That's fine, but laws aren't what I'm speaking about.
Basically, human morality is based on whether an innocent is harmed.
A good start, but not something everyone seems to agree on. What's harm does it do to have a black woman marry a white man? Nothing. Yet, decades ago, it was deemed immoral (and probably still is considered immoral to some today).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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