Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.
This makes me wonder if god is moral?
The quick answer is either yes (normally said by the faithful because that's what they're supposed to say) or no (mostly by 'the others'). But isn't that judging god's actions by human standards?
What if god has its own moral code, different from humanity's? After all, god didn't think it immoral to wipe out a whole city or drown 99.99% of the population (including babies and women in the middle of giving birth - what did those babies do to you, o god?!?!) as well as almost all living land animals. And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.
For discussion:
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?
Does god have morals?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #81[Replying to brunumb in post #80]
This could be said, not only of the entirety of the bible, but also the ones that preach from it. I suspect some of the writes where honest about what they THOUGHT they experience, but there are likely those that wrote it for specific reasons, twisting the truth or lying entirely.Put it all down to creative license on the part of the authors producing their explanation for what was probably a significant but natural flood event.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8130
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 953 times
- Been thanked: 3539 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #82But the fact remains that the Bible says that God repented doing the Flood and swore that he would never do it again. The god that made everything couldn't find some alternative to all that? What's more there is no decent evidence for such a flood ever having happened. Whether one places it at the end of the Cretaceous 60 Million BC or the beginning of Sumer 24,000 BC.tam wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:31 am Peace to you,
Death without a resurrection... ie, eternal death.Tcg wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pmOne has to wonder what a much worse fate would be than death.tam wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 pm
The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.
"Living" (relatively speaking) in a world filled with only evil all the time. And in a world filled with only evil all the time, would you want to be born into that world? Would you want your children to be born into that world? No hope, only fear and torment all the time... being either victims of creatures that are only evil all the time, or born to be corrupted so that they too become only evil all the time?
If you were thinking about all generations to come and not just that one generation, all life that has come after the flood was saved BY the flood. Those who died in the flood can still receive a resurrection, and that resurrection will be to a world without evil, pain, mourning, suffering, death.
If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, then 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time'. But I rarely find someone who argues against the flood who also accepts that as the reason for the flood.If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, and there is no reason to, there is no mention of a warning given to anyone other than Noah and Noah was told beforehand exactly who would be on the ark. It included only himself, his sons and their wives. There was no mention of room needed for anyone else nor of any message being broadcast to anyone else.
For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale. Maybe it is because the story makes God look so bad. It also makes the flood seem a useless effort. Shortly after, God reportedly had to scramble language to keep those pesky humans from doing something bad.
Tcg
**
All that being said, the flood did not occur because humans were 'pesky'. The "angels" (a particular kind), and their offspring with humans (also described as giants) are indeed mentioned in the context of the flood, and were wiped out in that flood. Even though some from Israel claimed or thought that they saw the offspring of these giants some time later, they could only have seen large men and mistaken them for the descendants of these beings. Because giants, the 'angels', and any possible further offspring of theirs were removed from the face of the earth in the flood.
Removing an external factor of corruption, giving humanity a chance, a fresh start, and ensuring the seed and the children of God would survive, have life, even eternal life.
Peace again to you!
There is no reason to take Genesis as anything but a Myth, and borrowed myth, too.
However this was not your point which was about justification for a global extermination of Humanity. The only excuse (of course) is that they had become so wicked (none of that the Creator's fault of course) that He, who had created them in the first place, had no other option to even try other than to wipe them all out, Men, women children and indeed animals, which hadn't sinned, but don't count in Biblical morality as they are either useful to humans or have no value at all. (1)
This is morality, even before we get to the massacres of Judges. This is the mythology of a near Barbaric people writing near barbaric stories about a near barbaric mythological deity, and if it gets a bit nicer with the Greek Christians it is because they had got a bit nicer., maybe.
(1)I recall a hilarious cartoon strip lampooning English Country Life where a Country Lady gave a talk on the Natural World where there were only 3 kinds of animals: Game, Stock or Vermin.
"What about butterflies?"
"Vermin; there are no herded or hunted butterflies, so far as I know".
- tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #83Peace to you!
Sorry, I meant to respond to this and then got sidetracked (thanks to transponder for bumping the thread).
That kind of answers tcg's earlier point:
For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale... TCB
The God I know (the God and Father of Christ, who is revealed NOT by men or religion or even a book... but who is revealed and shown for who He truly is by Christ) acts from love, to protect life (especially His own children). His instructions are for our benefit. He wants us to choose LIFE. I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)
I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around, but that would be because we don't live in the world that would have happened if God had not intervened to prevent it. He of course would be the one who knows what would have happened otherwise.
Christ said "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Seek the Kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you don't see the righteousness of God in an account, then a) something is missing from the text... and/or... b) you are misunderstanding/not seeing something (or many things)... and/or... c) the text is in actual error. Either way, look to Christ. Because Christ is the One who shows us His Father as His Father truly is. See Christ, see His Father as well. Know Christ, know His Father as well.
Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Sorry, I meant to respond to this and then got sidetracked (thanks to transponder for bumping the thread).
Ah... so you find something unrealistic about the story and for that reason, you seek and insert an alternative explanation.brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:23 pmIt is not a realistic society. Such a society would have destroyed itself in no time with no intervention from God necessary. Put it all down to creative license on the part of the authors producing their explanation for what was probably a significant but natural flood event.
That kind of answers tcg's earlier point:
For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale... TCB
The God I know (the God and Father of Christ, who is revealed NOT by men or religion or even a book... but who is revealed and shown for who He truly is by Christ) acts from love, to protect life (especially His own children). His instructions are for our benefit. He wants us to choose LIFE. I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)
I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around, but that would be because we don't live in the world that would have happened if God had not intervened to prevent it. He of course would be the one who knows what would have happened otherwise.
Christ said "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Seek the Kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you don't see the righteousness of God in an account, then a) something is missing from the text... and/or... b) you are misunderstanding/not seeing something (or many things)... and/or... c) the text is in actual error. Either way, look to Christ. Because Christ is the One who shows us His Father as His Father truly is. See Christ, see His Father as well. Know Christ, know His Father as well.
Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- Diogenes
- Guru
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
- Location: Washington
- Has thanked: 863 times
- Been thanked: 1266 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #84It certainly is not hard to "wrap one's head around" 'drastic conditions.' We have had them since. The current Russian genocide in Ukraine, for example.tam wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:26 pm I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)
I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around....
But the flood story is obviously best seen as, and typifies, mythic tales.
But let's address the details you've mentioned as recorded in Genesis, starting with the Nephilim. Genesis mentions them, but does not cite them as the corruption that must be eliminated. The Biblical account is specific; MAN has been corrupted.
Genesis 6:5-7 (ESV)'The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created...."'
The absolutely absurd notion (as brunumb points out) is that it is only the fantasy and absoluteness of myth that could be so conclusive to say "... every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. This is a ridiculous statement. As brunumb mentions, such a society is not only unrealistic, it is impossible. Consider what would happen if the ONLY thoughts EVERYone had was to be evil and do so CONTINUALLY. Such a society would kill itself off in one generation... if not in one week.
No, this story has all the characteristics and gross exaggeration of MYTH.
Returning to the Nephilim, they are not well defined. Sometimes the word is translated as 'giants.' In any event, the flood does not wipe them out. They reappear in Numbers 13, reported by Moses' spies. If some god killed 99.99999% of the people he created, people he once called 'good' in order to get rid of the Nephilim, he's a pretty ineffective god, not to mention unspeakably evil.
Keep in mind, the 'corruption' among men was not eliminated by the flood. Immediately after the flood, Noah gets drunk and his son mocks him and is cursed.
___________________________________
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
“Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”
— Confucius
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6623 times
- Been thanked: 3219 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #85If he is not revealed by men or religion or a book, how on earth do you know anything about him? Take those three options out of the picture and you would know nothing about the so-called God and Father of Christ.
How do you know these instructions and his wants if they are not revealed by men or religion or a book?
At least we know you got that from a book, but the details and source are of questionable veracity.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 8130
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 953 times
- Been thanked: 3539 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #86Cue "God puts all the information into my head; that's how I Know."
I'm sure that's how it works and explains Faith, Interpretation (including the Ghost Bible and what the Bible Really says as distinct from what it actually has on the page) and of course who is a real Christian and who is as damned as any God - denier because they are interpreting the Doctrines differently, which is to say, wrongly.
I'm sure that's how it works and explains Faith, Interpretation (including the Ghost Bible and what the Bible Really says as distinct from what it actually has on the page) and of course who is a real Christian and who is as damned as any God - denier because they are interpreting the Doctrines differently, which is to say, wrongly.
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #87That's a very apt process.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:06 am Cue "God puts all the information into my head; that's how I Know."
I'm sure that's how it works and explains Faith, Interpretation (including the Ghost Bible and what the Bible Really says as distinct from what it actually has on the page) and of course who is a real Christian and who is as damned as any God - denier because they are interpreting the Doctrines differently, which is to say, wrongly.
As I've said for a while now, god is in the mind of the person who created it for their own benefit.
Stare at cloud long enough, you'll see god. And a manatee. And an * symbol.
The mind is a very powerful thing.
And if that works for someone, great! Imagine whatever friend you want! Just don't subject others that don't ask for it to your imaginary friend.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #88Peace to you,
I said "drastic conditions (things that have NOT happened since)..."
And if certain 'angels', non-human beings, are having offspring with humans, that would be a corruption of man. Including if those beings were conscienceless (think psychopaths).
But as a myth or as reality, there are a couple of lessons that come through: Have faith in God (listen AND obey), and He will save you from any disaster, you and your household (be that the disaster of the flood or the disaster of the evil that precipitated the flood). This is a pretty common theme throughout the OT. If God tells you something is coming (such as a flood), believe Him. If He provides a way out, such as the ark, get ON the ark. God can and does save (both man and animal).
And whether they are well defined or not, they are defined. You can ignore that detail, or you can admit that perhaps there is something you are missing about the reason and conditions for the flood.
See that doesn't make sense does it... if... that was the 'corruption' being spoken of in the flood tale. But that is not the kind of corruption being spoken of in the flood tale.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
See, now you're changing my words.Diogenes wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:23 pmIt certainly is not hard to "wrap one's head around" 'drastic conditions.' We have had them since. The current Russian genocide in Ukraine, for example.tam wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:26 pm I also did not just make the Nephilm up out of thin air; they are a detail from the flood tale. The earth and man had been corrupted. (further explanations in previous posts)
I think everyone can acknowledge that the flood was a drastic event (whether you believe it to be actual or myth). Therefore, some might want to consider that there were drastic conditions (things that have not happened since, but that are mentioned in the tale) that precipitated the necessity of such a drastic event. That might be hard for some to wrap their head around....
But the flood story is obviously best seen as, and typifies, mythic tales.
I said "drastic conditions (things that have NOT happened since)..."
And the earth, don't forget that.But let's address the details you've mentioned as recorded in Genesis, starting with the Nephilim. Genesis mentions them, but does not cite them as the corruption that must be eliminated. The Biblical account is specific; MAN has been corrupted.
And if certain 'angels', non-human beings, are having offspring with humans, that would be a corruption of man. Including if those beings were conscienceless (think psychopaths).
If you want to take it as a myth, take it as a myth. But then many of the objections people make, claiming the story makes God look bad, lose credibility. Unless you want to say that the authors who created this myth were trying to teach a bad moral lesson about God. Does that really make sense? You don't worship a God and then try and tell others something bad about that God.Genesis 6:5-7 (ESV)'The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created...."'
The absolutely absurd notion (as brunumb points out) is that it is only the fantasy and absoluteness of myth that could be so conclusive to say "... every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Unless this is speaking of conscienceless beings, psychopaths (for lack of a better word). This is a ridiculous statement. As brunumb mentions, such a society is not only unrealistic, it is impossible. Consider what would happen if the ONLY thoughts EVERYone had was to be evil and do so CONTINUALLY. Such a society would kill itself off in one generation... if not in one week.
No, this story has all the characteristics and gross exaggeration of MYTH.
But as a myth or as reality, there are a couple of lessons that come through: Have faith in God (listen AND obey), and He will save you from any disaster, you and your household (be that the disaster of the flood or the disaster of the evil that precipitated the flood). This is a pretty common theme throughout the OT. If God tells you something is coming (such as a flood), believe Him. If He provides a way out, such as the ark, get ON the ark. God can and does save (both man and animal).
As stated in my previous post ( viewtopic.php?p=1074560#p1074560 )they don't reappear in Numbers. The flood did wipe them out. Those men who reported let fear get the best of them.Returning to the Nephilim, they are not well defined. Sometimes the word is translated as 'giants.' In any event, the flood does not wipe them out. They reappear in Numbers 13, reported by Moses' spies.
And whether they are well defined or not, they are defined. You can ignore that detail, or you can admit that perhaps there is something you are missing about the reason and conditions for the flood.
Keep in mind, the 'corruption' among men was not eliminated by the flood. Immediately after the flood, Noah gets drunk and his son mocks him and is cursed.
See that doesn't make sense does it... if... that was the 'corruption' being spoken of in the flood tale. But that is not the kind of corruption being spoken of in the flood tale.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Last edited by tam on Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #89Peace to you,
From Christ, or from knowing God personally. And knowing about someone is not the same as knowing them.
Please also note that I said God is revealed for who He TRULY is by Christ. I never said you cannot know anything about God from written accounts or other witnesses (though I hesitate to add religion in there because religion has so many lies in it). But it is Christ who reveals His Father IN TRUTH. So you hold everything up to Christ (the true image of God). Does God truly want adulteresses to be stoned? Well, what did Christ do when presented with that very situation? Did He pick up a stone, did He encourage others to pick up stones... or did He save that woman's life, showing mercy, forgiving? Christ even said that some laws were given - NOT because that is what was true from the beginning - but because the hearts of the people were hard.
Hold things up against love as well, because God is love (and the law that proceeds from Him, from the beginning, that is written upon the heart, that law is also love).
Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
How did anyone ever know Him before religion or a book? How did the first person ever know about Him?
From Christ, or from knowing God personally. And knowing about someone is not the same as knowing them.
Please also note that I said God is revealed for who He TRULY is by Christ. I never said you cannot know anything about God from written accounts or other witnesses (though I hesitate to add religion in there because religion has so many lies in it). But it is Christ who reveals His Father IN TRUTH. So you hold everything up to Christ (the true image of God). Does God truly want adulteresses to be stoned? Well, what did Christ do when presented with that very situation? Did He pick up a stone, did He encourage others to pick up stones... or did He save that woman's life, showing mercy, forgiving? Christ even said that some laws were given - NOT because that is what was true from the beginning - but because the hearts of the people were hard.
Hold things up against love as well, because God is love (and the law that proceeds from Him, from the beginning, that is written upon the heart, that law is also love).
Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: Does god have morals?
Post #90Peace again to you all,
IN case it didn't come clear in the previous post, if you are taking the story as a myth, you can't change any part of it. All the parts of a myth are required to make the moral or the point. And 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time" is part of the story.
Granted, if you think the story is real, that the global flood and ark did happen, well, then we can argue the details.
Peace again to you.
IN case it didn't come clear in the previous post, if you are taking the story as a myth, you can't change any part of it. All the parts of a myth are required to make the moral or the point. And 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time" is part of the story.
Granted, if you think the story is real, that the global flood and ark did happen, well, then we can argue the details.
Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)
- For Christ (who is the Spirit)