Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.
This makes me wonder if god is moral?
The quick answer is either yes (normally said by the faithful because that's what they're supposed to say) or no (mostly by 'the others'). But isn't that judging god's actions by human standards?
What if god has its own moral code, different from humanity's? After all, god didn't think it immoral to wipe out a whole city or drown 99.99% of the population (including babies and women in the middle of giving birth - what did those babies do to you, o god?!?!) as well as almost all living land animals. And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.
For discussion:
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?
Does god have morals?
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #111[Replying to Diogenes in post #0]
[Replying to Diogenes in post #108]
But besides for that, he is making the moral assumption
Why can't someone consider helping as bad?
Why does someone have to support another goal?
What if someone believes that the strong should get what they want?
Besides, why should we care if culture tears itself apart as long as we survive? That would mean more for each individual.
[Replying to Diogenes in post #108]
What morals do you think we are born with? Please write me your ode to humanism.A basic sense of morality is something we are born with. We see it in babies. It takes adults to teach us bigotry and unfairness
Oh, man this dude has not had children.A list would include: An understanding that helping is morally good, and that harming, hindering, or otherwise thwarting the goals of another person is morally bad. A rudimentary sense of justice—A list would include: An understanding that helping is morally good, and that harming, hindering, or otherwise thwarting the goals of another person is morally bad. A rudimentary sense of justice—an understanding that good guys should be rewarded and bad guys should be punished. An initial sense of fairness—in particular, that there should be an equal division of resources. And alongside these principles are moral emotions, including empathy, compassion, guilt, shame, and righteous anger. An initial sense of fairness—in particular, that there should be an equal division of resources. And alongside these principles are moral emotions, including empathy, compassion, guilt, shame, and righteous anger.
But besides for that, he is making the moral assumption
- that helping is morally good
that harming, hindering, or otherwise thwarting the goals of another is morally bad
that it is morally good to have an initial sense of fairness—in particular, that there should be an equal division of resources.
Who says that any of these are good and the others are bad? That is my question.empathy, compassion, guilt shame, and righteous anger are morally good.
Why can't someone consider helping as bad?
Why does someone have to support another goal?
What if someone believes that the strong should get what they want?
What makes the Golden Rule written?The 'Golden Rule' was preached long before the New Testament. Despite many of the tribal references and bigotry we see in the Old Testament, we see these same principles reflected in the wisdom literature of the Bible.
That is not true. Hitler killed millions for his selfish goals. Stalin killed millions for his selfish goals. Totalitarian governments control their countries by fear and strength. Let me tell you that a child would hurt someone when they got mad if they were as small as they are.No individual culture or tribe survives without this basic morality because it would tear itself apart without it. We can even observe it in animals. Mammals at least, share this same sense of empathy, fairness, and reciprocity. There's a well known Ted Talk with Frans de Waal that has been published on this forum several times:
Besides, why should we care if culture tears itself apart as long as we survive? That would mean more for each individual.
You still have not given a reason why the things you classify as moral are moral. So what if it took certain morals for us to get to this point. Why do we have to keep things like empathy, and justice if they will benefit the individual? Those in extreme power seem not to care about the things you call moral. People like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao didn't have morals. And why would they have to? They were the most powerful why should they not do as they will.For some reason, there is a cultural-centric notion argued here many times by evangelicals that insist morality can only come from their God. This is just plain wrong, as I have just demonstrated.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #112[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #111]
When it gets down to it, morals are also categorized as 'good' and 'bad' and there had to be some type of genuine belief within these individuals for them to start down the paths they chose - driven as they were by their morals coding.
Morals shift - but what is behind it all which remains the same, regardless?
The will to survive?
And what is behind that?
Emotion?
To what point does our existence hereabouts [on a planet "ship"] matter, if the sailors/crew have no interest in knowing?
Is it morally irresponsible to not want to know?
Are you sure about that?You still have not given a reason why the things you classify as moral are moral. So what if it took certain morals for us to get to this point. Why do we have to keep things like empathy, and justice if they will benefit the individual? Those in extreme power seem not to care about the things you call moral. People like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao didn't have morals. And why would they have to? They were the most powerful why should they not do as they will.
When it gets down to it, morals are also categorized as 'good' and 'bad' and there had to be some type of genuine belief within these individuals for them to start down the paths they chose - driven as they were by their morals coding.
Morals shift - but what is behind it all which remains the same, regardless?
The will to survive?
And what is behind that?
Emotion?
To what point does our existence hereabouts [on a planet "ship"] matter, if the sailors/crew have no interest in knowing?
Is it morally irresponsible to not want to know?
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #113[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #111]
That mass of verbiage shows you may not have watched the video or looked at citations, or even understood the argument. I specifically listed qualities of universal morality: fairness, empathy, cooperation, working together for a common good. We see this in the Bible as well; however the Bible talks about only applying this standard WITHIN the tribe. For example the Hebrews were instructed that slavery was fine, but prohibited enslaving fellow Hebrews (those within the tribe).
It isn't until the advent of Jesus that we see the idea of treating even those OUTSIDE the tribe with kindness.
If you can't see the examples of good morality from what I've written, I doubt further explanation from me will help.
That mass of verbiage shows you may not have watched the video or looked at citations, or even understood the argument. I specifically listed qualities of universal morality: fairness, empathy, cooperation, working together for a common good. We see this in the Bible as well; however the Bible talks about only applying this standard WITHIN the tribe. For example the Hebrews were instructed that slavery was fine, but prohibited enslaving fellow Hebrews (those within the tribe).
Leviticus 25:46You may leave them to your sons after you to inherit as property; you can make them slaves for life. But as for your brothers, the Israelites, no man may rule harshly over his brother.
It isn't until the advent of Jesus that we see the idea of treating even those OUTSIDE the tribe with kindness.
If you can't see the examples of good morality from what I've written, I doubt further explanation from me will help.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #114[Replying to Diogenes in post #113]
To believe that slavery is wrong a person must believe that "all men are CREATED equal" this is a Biblical principle.
Why do you believe slavery is wrong? Many in history have not. What are you basing your belief on?That mass of verbiage shows you may not have watched the video or looked at citations, or even understood the argument. I specifically listed qualities of universal morality: fairness, empathy, cooperation, working together for a common good. We see this in the Bible as well; however the Bible talks about only applying this standard WITHIN the tribe. For example the Hebrews were instructed that slavery was fine, but prohibited enslaving fellow Hebrews (those within the tribe).
To believe that slavery is wrong a person must believe that "all men are CREATED equal" this is a Biblical principle.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #115"All men are created equal" is definitely not a Biblical principle. In fact, the Bible teaches the opposite. The Bible teaches a superior, 'favorite' tribe, the Jews. It teaches that slavery is just fine, except for Jews. It teaches that even among Jews, some are inferior and not fit to be priests, including anyone with a "flat nose" or crushed testicle, or any other blemish. The Bible grades men as if they were cattle.EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 3:50 pm Why do you believe slavery is wrong? Many in history have not. What are you basing your belief on?
To believe that slavery is wrong a person must believe that "all men are CREATED equal" this is a Biblical principle.
No, we certainly cannot look to the Bible for morality. As I have amply demonstrated previously, morality comes from homo sapiens recognition that to survive, they need to cooperate and have feelings of empathy and fairness. The tyrant 'god' of the Old Testament, like Nietzche and Hitler, believe 'might makes right.'
This is the "morality" of the Bible. As JW has made very clear, God rules because he is the creator; whatever he says is good and moral because he is God. There is no intrinsic morality.
This is in stark contrast to what Jesus of Nazareth preached.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #116Slavery's also a "biblical principle".EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 3:50 pm To believe that slavery is wrong a person must believe that "all men are CREATED equal" this is a Biblical principle.
So we're left to our innate compassion to understand that if I put shackles on you today, someone might come along and put em on me tomorrow.
This whole argument boils down to the typical Christian attempt to declare only they - by way of a god they can't show exists to even have an opinion - are the sole possessors of morality.
Nevermind the planet flooding and the evil creating.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #117That's very good. Let me think..You and Willum are different posters? I do apparently get you confused. Yes, I think (and have explained why) Human morals are based on the objective aim of human well - being which is a more sophisticated version of eat, survive, reproduce (sophisticated as in Dine out, wait for the green light and let's browse the dating apps again). This is all evolutionary survival - based but humans both became more socially complex and could reason about these matters. Thus we have tried to devise moral codes. They are far from perfect, but the Bible simply tried to come up with the best moral code for the time and claim divine authority for it.William wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:57 pm [Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #111]
Are you sure about that?You still have not given a reason why the things you classify as moral are moral. So what if it took certain morals for us to get to this point. Why do we have to keep things like empathy, and justice if they will benefit the individual? Those in extreme power seem not to care about the things you call moral. People like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao didn't have morals. And why would they have to? They were the most powerful why should they not do as they will.
When it gets down to it, morals are also categorized as 'good' and 'bad' and there had to be some type of genuine belief within these individuals for them to start down the paths they chose - driven as they were by their morals coding.
Morals shift - but what is behind it all which remains the same, regardless?
The will to survive?
And what is behind that?
Emotion?
To what point does our existence hereabouts [on a planet "ship"] matter, if the sailors/crew have no interest in knowing?
Is it morally irresponsible to not want to know?
Jefferson, while ripping all the miracles out of his Bible, nevertheless declared that the Gospels was the best moral code there was. I think we have done better now (though one might wonder about it given the way we behave) and there is now no valid reason to appeal to the Bible (New T or Old) as a guide to life, and many reasons not to.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #118[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #116]
Yes that is right. What are you basing your moral belief on?This whole argument boils down to the typical Christian attempt to declare only they - by way of a god they can't show exists to even have an opinion - are the sole possessors of morality.
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Re: Does god have morals?
Post #119Empathy.EarthScienceguy wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 3:25 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #116]
Yes that is right. What are you basing your moral belief on?This whole argument boils down to the typical Christian attempt to declare only they - by way of a god they can't show exists to even have an opinion - are the sole possessors of morality.
Now let's serve the question back...
Considering you can't show your favored god exists to even have an opinion you can't show he does, on what do you base your moral beliefs?
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