Does god have morals?

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nobspeople
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Does god have morals?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.

This makes me wonder if god is moral?
The quick answer is either yes (normally said by the faithful because that's what they're supposed to say) or no (mostly by 'the others'). But isn't that judging god's actions by human standards?
What if god has its own moral code, different from humanity's? After all, god didn't think it immoral to wipe out a whole city or drown 99.99% of the population (including babies and women in the middle of giving birth - what did those babies do to you, o god?!?!) as well as almost all living land animals. And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.

For discussion:
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #71

Post by Tcg »

tam wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 pm
The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.
One has to wonder what a much worse fate would be than death.

If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, and there is no reason to, there is no mention of a warning given to anyone other than Noah and Noah was told beforehand exactly who would be on the ark. It included only himself, his sons and their wives. There was no mention of room needed for anyone else nor of any message being broadcast to anyone else.

For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale. Maybe it is because the story makes God look so bad. It also makes the flood seem a useless effort. Shortly after, God reportedly had to scramble language to keep those pesky humans from doing something bad.


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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #72

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 pm The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.
It may have been necessary to eliminate some awfully wicked people who were somehow wrecking the world, but that does not mean that a worldwide devastating flood was necessary. God chose a very barbaric and excessively destructive method to achieve a rather simple outcome. Simple for an omnipotent being that is.

We can legitimately blame God because he was the perpetrator. Excuses don't change that. By the way, it is rather odd that he would offer a way out to the very people he allegedly needed to eliminate.
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #73

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:59 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:42 am [You're claiming that no one, or at least Diogenes here, should see no valid reason to conclude God has ever acted unjustly. But he has.
He has has he? Well Miles, this sounds very much like an opinion to me... if it is not your opinion (based on your understanding of the biblical text) what is it?
Well JW, you're asking about another's opinion of the biblical text in a subforum where the Bible is not considered authoritative? What possible difference could the answer make?


Tcg


Well if Miles is willing to stop sharing his opinion on the contents of the bible here, I certainly will be willing to at least consider stopping sharing mine. While we are at it, I suppose everyone will stop asking OPs based in ones take of the biblical narrative as is the case in this thread.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:14 am And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.


One thing is for sure, his comment will be bookmaked and I will be repost it as and every time he should post his personal opinion on anything biblical as of this date in the hopes he would like to enlarge on this very interesting point.

Comments, opinions, summaries analysis ABOUND in this thread and in this subforum in the contents of the bible ...
Diogenes wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:58 pm... IF there were a god like the Bible depicts, he would be outside our moral system.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:59 pm.... The OT god is a grumpy, hell-bent, vengeful thing while the NT god seems to be a lot more 'sugar and spice and everything nice'. ...
Diogenes wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:23 pm There appear to be two distinct set of morals in the Bible. ...
nobspeople wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:05 am ...numerous terrible things outlined in the bible ...
Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate...




This is a picture of a goose ... and a gander.
Image



I'm the gander [*]


JW

[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #74

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:55 am
Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:59 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:42 am [You're claiming that no one, or at least Diogenes here, should see no valid reason to conclude God has ever acted unjustly. But he has.
He has has he? Well Miles, this sounds very much like an opinion to me... if it is not your opinion (based on your understanding of the biblical text) what is it?
Well JW, you're asking about another's opinion of the biblical text in a subforum where the Bible is not considered authoritative? What possible difference could the answer make?


Tcg


Well if Miles is willing to stop sharing his opinion on the contents of the bible here, I certainly will be willing to at least consider stopping sharing mine. While we are at it, I suppose everyone will stop asking OPs based in ones take of the biblical narrative as is the case in this thread.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:14 am And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.


One thing is for sure, his comment will be bookmaked and I will be repost it as and every time he should post his personal opinion on anything biblical as of this date in the hopes he would like to enlarge on this very interesting point.

Comments, opinions, summaries analysis ABOUND in this thread and in this subforum in the contents of the bible ...
Diogenes wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:58 pm... IF there were a god like the Bible depicts, he would be outside our moral system.
nobspeople wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:59 pm.... The OT god is a grumpy, hell-bent, vengeful thing while the NT god seems to be a lot more 'sugar and spice and everything nice'. ...
Diogenes wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:23 pm There appear to be two distinct set of morals in the Bible. ...
nobspeople wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:05 am ...numerous terrible things outlined in the bible ...
Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate...




This is a picture of a goose ... and a gander.
Image



I'm the gander [*]


JW

[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
Are opinions not permitted in this section?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #75

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:22 am

Are opinions not permitted in this section?
I don't know... ask Miles.

Miles wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:59 pm Then this all comes down to your personal OPINION, which makes the whole discussion here moot. *sheesh!*
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #76

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
tam wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 pm
The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.
One has to wonder what a much worse fate would be than death.
Death without a resurrection... ie, eternal death.

"Living" (relatively speaking) in a world filled with only evil all the time. And in a world filled with only evil all the time, would you want to be born into that world? Would you want your children to be born into that world? No hope, only fear and torment all the time... being either victims of creatures that are only evil all the time, or born to be corrupted so that they too become only evil all the time?

If you were thinking about all generations to come and not just that one generation, all life that has come after the flood was saved BY the flood. Those who died in the flood can still receive a resurrection, and that resurrection will be to a world without evil, pain, mourning, suffering, death.


If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, and there is no reason to, there is no mention of a warning given to anyone other than Noah and Noah was told beforehand exactly who would be on the ark. It included only himself, his sons and their wives. There was no mention of room needed for anyone else nor of any message being broadcast to anyone else.

For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale. Maybe it is because the story makes God look so bad. It also makes the flood seem a useless effort. Shortly after, God reportedly had to scramble language to keep those pesky humans from doing something bad.


Tcg
If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, then 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time'. But I rarely find someone who argues against the flood who also accepts that as the reason for the flood.


**

All that being said, the flood did not occur because humans were 'pesky'. The "angels" (a particular kind), and their offspring with humans (also described as giants) are indeed mentioned in the context of the flood, and were wiped out in that flood. Even though some from Israel claimed or thought that they saw the offspring of these giants some time later, they could only have seen large men and mistaken them for the descendants of these beings. Because giants, the 'angels', and any possible further offspring of theirs were removed from the face of the earth in the flood.

Removing an external factor of corruption, giving humanity a chance, a fresh start, and ensuring the seed and the children of God would survive, have life, even eternal life.



Peace again to you!
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #77

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:47 am
nobspeople wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:22 am

Are opinions not permitted in this section?
I don't know... ask Miles.

Miles wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:59 pm Then this all comes down to your personal OPINION, which makes the whole discussion here moot. *sheesh!*
I rarely agree with you and your opinions, but I, for one, welcome them when they're asked for.
:approve:
And in the end, when it comes to 'god' and 'the bible', very little is factual past 'the bible is a book written about god'. Most everything else is an opinion based on one's specific POV on the subject.
I have learned a lot from you, in both positive and negative ways. :handshake:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #78

Post by Diogenes »

Tcg wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:15 pm
tam wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 pm
The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.
One has to wonder what a much worse fate would be than death.

If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, and there is no reason to, there is no mention of a warning given to anyone other than Noah and Noah was told beforehand exactly who would be on the ark. It included only himself, his sons and their wives. There was no mention of room needed for anyone else nor of any message being broadcast to anyone else.

For some reason, details not found in the flood tale get added to the story perhaps more than any other Biblical tale. Maybe it is because the story makes God look so bad. It also makes the flood seem a useless effort. Shortly after, God reportedly had to scramble language to keep those pesky humans from doing something bad.
Great points! I am always baffled when I hear people treat this myth as if it actually happened. I suppose that if an adult cannot instantly understand its mythic nature, there is no point in trying to explain [sigh].

But the very idea of a single event wiping out virtually all of humanity, not to mention all other animals besides fish, is just too preposterous to consider for even a moment, not to mention EVIL. It has all the earmarks of myths: it's exaggerated all inclusiveness, the absurdity of all species crowded on to a boat with only two of each; not to mention the utter stupid depravity of a 'creator' who somehow determined 100% of them were wicked enough to be killed (save one family with its own issues of drunkenness and mockery), it is really too much.

It's based on Jewish scripture, not Christian, and Jews are much less prone to take it literally. I found an approach to the story that makes sense:

"... the Bible "republished" a mythological story that people at that time were familiar with, but substituted Jewish values within them."
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium ... -1.5330042
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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #79

Post by William »

If people choose to build their cities too near to volcanoes, they bear the responsibility for any damage they suffer if an eruption occurs.

Death being "the worse fate" possible, might not be the case, whether one believes they are wiped from the face of existence, or whether they believe they will continue existing in some other way...

Which is to say, there are worse fates than death...

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Re: Does god have morals?

Post #80

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:31 am If one is to accept the biblical tale as accurate, then 'the hearts of men were only evil all the time'. But I rarely find someone who argues against the flood who also accepts that as the reason for the flood.
It is not a realistic society. Such a society would have destroyed itself in no time with no intervention from God necessary. Put it all down to creative license on the part of the authors producing their explanation for what was probably a significant but natural flood event.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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