Magic Evil Psychic Spirits

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 27 here:

People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm any of that is true and factual.

[Tcg]

From Post 27 here:

People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm any of that is true and factual.

I suspect that your quest has been ignored because there aren't any. In context, the reply was addressing the claim that an individual became a billionaire based on their practice of meditation. While I am not convinced that the claim has been supported, I don't think that those who practice meditation are "in league with evil spirits." To my knowledge those who practice meditation don't view it as such. This amounts to witch hunting as far as I can tell. Not unusual centuries ago, but a bit odd to see today.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

Now THAT would appear to be the shortest thread ever.

[bjs1]

From Post 27 here:

People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm any of that is true and factual.

The definition of magic is: the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

So it is factual to say that the above description fits the definition of magic.

I am unaware of any official “Christian” teaching on this topic, but the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the ages have held that magic is a fantasy.

[Tcg]

I am unaware of any official “Christian” teaching on this topic, but the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the ages have held that magic is a fantasy.

One has to wonder how it would be possible to know what "the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the ages" have held on this subject. Be that as it may, we have this mention of magicians in the tale of the plagues. Perhaps Christians throughout the ages have overlooked it.

Exodus 7:20 Moses and Aaron did just as the Lord had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

The author doesn't specify what the secret arts are, but it very well could be suggesting the use of magic and not a fantasy. Odd that the story claims that the magicians did the same thing Moses and Aaron had done given that all the water had already been turned into blood. Of course, we need not expect to find consistency when it comes to these stories.


Tcg

[bjs1]

I am unaware of any official “Christian” teaching on this topic, but the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the ages have held that magic is a fantasy.

One has to wonder how it would be possible to know what "the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout the ages" have held on this subject.

I cannot speak to idiosyncratic beliefs. However the early Imperial church, as well as the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church after the great schism, taught that witchcraft does not exist. The relatively few Protestant denominations that bother to take a stance on witchcraft, such as the Anglican Church, call it a false superstition.

Be that as it may, we have this mention of magicians in the tale of the plagues. Perhaps Christians throughout the ages have overlooked it.

Exodus 7:20 Moses and Aaron did just as the Lord had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

The author doesn't specify what the secret arts are, but it very well could be suggesting the use of magic and not a fantasy. Odd that the story claims that the magicians did the same thing Moses and Aaron had done given that all the water had already been turned into blood. Of course, we need not expect to find consistency when it comes to these stories.

Obviously you are free to believe that these “secret arts” are literal magic as opposed to sleight of hand. You are also free to imagine any timeline you want in order to create inconsistencies. This, of course, does not mean that such things are found in the biblical text.

[TRANSPONDER]

We have to grab the bull by the horns. 'Evil Spirits' is something that is a fact in our world. I don't mean real, but as much a part of human belief as gods and benign spirits. Magic, miracles, prognostications and`magical dreams. One of the things that most made me doubt the veracity of the Bible was the so - easy mechanism of the Dream to get over a plot -problem. Dreams may tell us something about our psychological state, but nothing else, unless people dream differently from me.

Another demerit against the Bible (specifically the gospels) is the blaming of evil spirits for illness. We are all familiar with the 'gap for god' fallacy or argument from ignorance (1) where we didn't know what made lightning or what comets were for so we invented a supernatural agency and a hypothetical purpose. Comets don't tell humans any message, and that was a demerit against supernatural astronomy, or astrology. I did once look into the claims of 'fortune telling' and had to conclude that it was all a great fraud, either by deluded believers or cynically exploitative money - scammers.

We are (probably) also familiar with the fallacy of Biased sample/selective evidence or 'counting the hits and ignoring the misses'. It's one of the kingpin ways of fooling people into believing fortune telling and of course, 'answered prayers' works the same way. Plus of course the element of 'oracular utterance'. When one is constantly looking for a prediction to happen (or a prayer come true), it is tempting to fiddle anything into the fulfilment.
"Do you remember last month the Hoodo -lady told me I'd have good luck when a black cat crossed my path? Well, I stepped into the road today and a taxi almost ran me down.'

"Uhh...so what?'

"It was black. A Black Cab, not cat but Cab. And luck - it didn't hit me'.

You may laugh, (or not but I've heard more far -fetched miracles pulled out of thin air (never mind some that founded like delusions) but it is so easy to produce heaps of this stuff as 'evidence of the supernatural' and put any caution down to 'closed minded materialism' (accused of being 'a religion' for good measure).

So I don't propose to labour this subject, which in its' way, is as fascinating as Theist -think /Cult -think (and haven't we seen a lot of that recently?) it is only too likely that evil spirits, the manifest supernatural or magical manipulation of nature (including Answered prayer) is all part of a massive human delusion which is perpetuated by the twin fallacies of Numbers and Tradition. The upshot is that really, and once again, there is no valid reason to credit demonic spirits or the like until convincing evidence is produced.

cue: and didn't we hear it lumbering along like a troll in armour? 'The burden of proof is on the skeptics to prove they don't exist'. No. Just as a god and indeed Bible reliability, enough doubt there is to say: 'There really is no good reason to believe, and the burden of proof is on the claimant'.

(1) often misunderstood by Christian apologists who think it means they are ignorant. It simply means 'we don't know - so a supernatural explanation is invented'.

[Athetotheist]

It's been said that the gods of old religions become the devils of new ones.

[Athetotheist]

From Post 27 here:

People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm any of that is true and factual.

I suspect that your quest has been ignored because there aren't any. In context, the reply was addressing the claim that an individual became a billionaire based on their practice of meditation. While I am not convinced that the claim has been supported, I don't think that those who practice meditation are "in league with evil spirits." To my knowledge those who practice meditation don't view it as such. This amounts to witch hunting as far as I can tell. Not unusual centuries ago, but a bit odd to see today.

A bit odd perhaps, but not as uncommon as one might think.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180957106/

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #6]

the early Imperial church, as well as the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church after the great schism, taught that witchcraft does not exist.

See Innocent VIII's papal bull "Summis Desiderantes Affectibus" of 1484.