Reasons to get to heaven

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nobspeople
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Reasons to get to heaven

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

I was told by some, the main reason one should want to get to heaven is so they can praise god for eternity.
Is this correct? God seems to be needy and wants all attention focused on (You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God...)
So it seems that this thinking of praising god forever is apt.
But is it?
Many will say 'I will see [insert dead loved one's name here] soon/on the other side/etc'
It seems these people want to socialize with those they've lost, making heaven an elite social club. Add if the city is, indeed, gold-like (or of gold: “The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass”) that seems apt (guess even god loves gold - you'd have thunk it?!?).

So who's correct: those that say heaven is a place to kiss god's... feet... or a place to see dead loved ones?

For discussion: What's the literal, physical characteristics of heaven and what will happen to those that make it there?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Diagoras
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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #21

Post by Diagoras »

Ok, thanks - I checked the edit (about the milkmaid) and am left even more puzzled.

In this heavenly hierarchy, it seems you have plain ol’ righteous physical humans at the bottom, on New Earth. Then in heaven there’s angels, the 144k above them and of those, a special twelve? Plus Christ and God, of course. Have I got that right?

Resurrecting a human to a level above angel seems odd to me. And imbuing her with so much power (linguistics being presumably just one aspect) seems doubly odd. That must involve a radical personality change. All she’s known is milking cows and praising God. Suddenly she can speak Serbo-Croat and Creole, and (presumably) can issue instructions to lesser angels.

Odd. Very, very odd.

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Firstly may I point out that I make no claims here, I am simply expressing what I believe based on the bible. Please take all sentences to be preceeded by the premise "I believe ..."

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:23 pmResurrecting a human to a level above angel seems odd to me. And imbuing her with so much power (linguistics being presumably just one aspect) seems doubly odd. That must involve a radical personality change.


There's no doubt, being chosen to rule in heaven is an immense priviledge and responsibility.

Since God is omniscient and knows the future, He runs no risk of making an error in his choices. As for personality change , the whole point of choosing humans seems to be that (unlike angels) they would fully comprehend (and bring to their office) their human experience. Giving somebody "superpowers" doesnt mean making them a different person, they are just the same person with superpowers.

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:23 pmAll she’s known is milking cows and praising God. ... Odd. Very, very odd.
You seem to think that someone that is poor, uneducated and / or socialy limited, cannot be a person of quality. Is social status a guarantee of moral or intellectual excellence or rather often simply an accident of birth?

I for one am GLAD there will be former milkmaids in government. They will understand what its like to be a manuel worker, to be a woman in a male dominated world. They will understand what it means to be looked down on or oppressed, possibly sexually harassed or even worse.

Will she not be a good person to ensure no "little people" gets overlooked? If she had been illiterate, would she not be the perfect candidate to be "Head of education" or work to ensure everyone has books and material, having experienced firsthand how limiting not having those things can be?

How many members of Senate know what it's like to live on a dollar a day? Work down a coalmine? Struggle to keep their kids off the street in the inner City? Did our milkmaid maybe look longlingly at the rich girls that could go to school while she and to sleep out in the barn? Did she she wish to learn but never have the opportunity?
Who do you think will be more compassionate and sensitive to our needs? This former milkmaid or the billionaire toffs that never did a days hard work in their pampered lives that make up many of the heads of human governments today?
The BEAUTY of Gods kingdom is that it will be comprised of former milkmaids, and black American slaves, former farmers and washerwomen....yes some intellectuals, some Princes maybe, some brilliant scientists, mathématiciens, linguistes ... maybe even a few nobles but most will have been humble, lowly, "uneducated" nobodies. And if this seems "odd" let us not forget the first chosen were fishermen, farmers and a tax collector and that the TOP job went to a former carpenter from backwoods of Nazaeth who was quite literally "born in a barn".


1 CORINTHIANS 1:26, 27 - NWT


For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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brunumb
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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #23

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:16 pm May I point out that I make no claims here, I am simply expressing what I believe based on the bible. Please take all sentences to be preceeded by the premise "I believe ..."
Please take all responses to your posts to be preceded by the question "Why should we give a toss about what you believe if you are unable to demonstrate that any of it is true". This is supposed to be a forum for debate, not a chat room for people sharing their beliefs.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #24

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:51 pm The BEAUTY of Gods kingdom is that it will be comprised of former milkmaids, and black American slaves, former farmers and washerwomen....yes some intellectuals, some Princes maybe, some brilliant scientists, mathématiciens, linguistes ... maybe even a few nobles but most will have been humble, lowly, "uneducated" nobodies. And if this seems "odd" let us not forget the first chosen were fishermen, farmers and a tax collector and that the TOP job went to a former carpenter from backwoods of Nazaeth who was literally "born in a barn".
Nothing more than a belief which means that it could be as far from reality as is possible. I don't see ho anyone could take any of it seriously on that account.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:44 am This is supposed to be a forum for debate, not a chat room for people sharing their beliefs.
I see nothing in the guidelines that prohibits sharing ones beliefs / opinions, especially when asked directly about them as has been the case.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:50 pm Will they perhaps learn how to perform miracles, like the feeding of the multitude?
Firstly may I point out that I make no claims here, I am simply expressing what I believe based on the bible. Please take all sentences to be preceeded by the premise "I believe ..."
They will have God's infinite power at their disposal so if miracles are needed, miracles will be employed. That said the planet earth is itself a "miracle" and properly managed (by the global government) I see no reason why such "emergency measures" need be applied. The multitude will be fed because the earth will be allowed to heal of the terrible abuse it has suffered, greed, pollution, war and climate change will be things of the past and everyone will be given sufficient land to grow what they need.


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JEHOVAH'S WITNESS






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Will people suffer from hunger on the paradise EARTH?
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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:49 pm
"Things would be a lot better if I were in charge" tends to be the product of an uncritical mind.
That is not what is being said; rather "things will be a lot better when GOD is in charge". Logically speaking a government in the hands of a loving and all powerful God would better than government in the power of limited (albeit well meaning) imperfect humans.



COMPLIMENTS TO THE COOK

A critical mind can objectively look at history and come to some reasonable conclusions: 6000 years of human governments has not eliminated war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering. We have tried every conceivable form of human rulership, communisme, democracy, absolute monarchies, Parliamentary sovereignties, commonweaths, socialisme, national socialism... how many bad meals to you have to be served before you figure out it might not be the ingredients but the cook that's the problem?

You speak of an "uncritical mind", what is it going to take to drive home that when it comes to the management of global problems humans are simply not up to the task!? One might not be comfortable with this conclusion, (and depending one one's beliefs, one might have to accept there is no alternative to the situation), but given the facts, to believe humans will eventually solve all their own problems given enough time is fantasy at its most delusional.


My 2 and a half cents.

JW




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Is it not lazy and defeatist to look to God to solve all our problems?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p848013
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HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... "DELAYS "DEBUNKED

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

nobspeople
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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #28

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:14 am
Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:49 pm
"Things would be a lot better if I were in charge" tends to be the product of an uncritical mind.
That is not what is being said; rather "things will be a lot better when GOD is in charge". Logically speaking a government in the hands of a loving and all powerful God would better than government in the power of limited (albeit well meaning) imperfect humans.



COMPLIMENTS TO THE COOK

A critical mind can objectively look at history and come to some reasonable conclusions: 6000 years of human governments has not eliminated war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering. We have tried every conceivable form of human rulership, communisme, democracy, absolute monarchies, Parliamentary sovereignties, commonweaths, socialisme, national socialism... how many bad meals to you have to be served before you figure out it might not be the ingredients but the cook that's the problem?

You speak of an "uncritical mind", what is it going to take to drive home that when it comes to the management of global problems humans are simply not up to the task!? One might not be comfortable with this conclusion, (and depending one one's beliefs, one might have to accept there is no alternative to the situation), but given the facts, to believe humans will eventually solve all their own problems given enough time is fantacy at its most delusional.


My 2 and a half cents.

JW




RELATED POSTS


Is it not lazy and defeatist to look to God to solve all our problems?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p848013
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... "DELAYS "DEBUNKED

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses
Seems to me, it makes more sense to think people can solve their problems than an invisible man in the sky, that was perfectly content to drown 99.9% of all terrestrial life (human, animal and plant), that no one alive has ever met, that even his followers can't agree on totally, solve anything. Even IF the Adam and Eve story is to be believed, this man either planned for sin to create chaos in humanity or couldn't do anything to stop it.
I see humanity - good and bad.
I don't see any god.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #29

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:14 am
Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:49 pm
"Things would be a lot better if I were in charge" tends to be the product of an uncritical mind.
That is not what is being said; rather "things will be a lot better when GOD is in charge". Logically speaking a government in the hands of a loving and all powerful God would [be] better than government in the power of limited (albeit well meaning) imperfect humans.
As I don't believe that God exists, this would be the equivalent of saying, "things will be a lot better when no-one is in charge".

A critical mind can objectively look at history and come to some reasonable conclusions: 6000 years of human governments has not eliminated war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering.
You're not alone in this view, which is why Factfulness got started to try and teach people (including politicians, scientists and other world leaders) about the problem of viewing the world through a 'dramatic attention filter'.

A nice summary is here: https://www.gapminder.org/factfulness/ and I invite you (and hopefully, others following this thread) to follow the links under the 'Resources' heading (top right) and then 'Understanding a changing world'. By every measure you highlight (and many more), the world has dramatically improved, and there's plenty of evidence that this trend will continue.

You speak of an "uncritical mind", what is it going to take to drive home that when it comes to the management of global problems humans are simply not up to the task!?
The conclusion I draw from exploring the site (and having read the book) is that societies change over time for the better and the world has made great strides in improving quality of life. That's down to humans, not the gods they invented. Check out this neat graph:

https://www.gapminder.org/fw/world-health-chart/

to believe humans will eventually solve all their own problems given enough time is fantacy (sic) at its most delusional.
On the contrary, to believe that people should turn to some imagined deity in order to solve their problems for them would be fantasy 'at its most delusional'.

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Re: Reasons to get to heaven

Post #30

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:14 amCOMPLIMENTS TO THE COOK

A critical mind can objectively look at history and come to some reasonable conclusions: 6000 years of human governments has not eliminated war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering. We have tried every conceivable form of human rulership, communisme, democracy, absolute monarchies, Parliamentary sovereignties, commonweaths, socialisme, national socialism... how many bad meals to you have to be served before you figure out it might not be the ingredients but the cook that's the problem?
I agree with this to a point. Actually I agree with it about 99%. Humans are the problem, but no particular human is the problem. It's the structures of hierarchy we create and the types of people that naturally succeed in such structures. Ironically religion is among the most plagued by the results of this. There are people who would be good leaders, but they don't end up leading. The hierarchies are incapable of making that happen. The greedy, the corrupt, they are always elevated, and the masses of decent people are the ones elevating them.

Nobody is cooking this though; nobody is saying, "Let's elevate the worst and relegate the best to grunt-work." The cook is the problem, but there is no cook. Not exactly. It's a phenomenon that happens in social structures as a result of our human weakness, that I'll agree, but nobody is setting out to do it. There's nobody there with a pepper shaker just dumping the stuff in; it's more like an ice skater skating around the soup skin with the pepper on his back oblivious to the fact that he's ruining the soup every time he completes an axel. And everyone is clapping and cheering saying oh what a great jump, all having little shakers themselves and oblivious to the giant one.

The point where I disagree is I see this as something we can stop doing at any time. We can become more civilised. Good governments do reduce crime. We just have to take the same attitude toward the charismatic and greedy that we take toward murderers. And we have to ignore our own judgment and look at the facts. Who is leeching? Who is giving?
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:42 am I was told by some, the main reason one should want to get to heaven is so they can praise god for eternity.
Is this correct? God seems to be needy and wants all attention focused on [him]
If he's actually a giant cat I don't have a huge problem with it.



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