Reasons to get to heaven

[nobspeople]

I was told by some, the main reason one should want to get to heaven is so they can praise god for eternity.
Is this correct? God seems to be needy and wants all attention focused on (You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God...)
So it seems that this thinking of praising god forever is apt.
But is it?
Many will say 'I will see [insert dead loved one's name here] soon/on the other side/etc'
It seems these people want to socialize with those they've lost, making heaven an elite social club. Add if the city is, indeed, gold-like (or of gold: “The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass”) that seems apt (guess even god loves gold - you'd have thunk it?!?).

So who's correct: those that say heaven is a place to kiss god's... feet... or a place to see dead loved ones?

For discussion: What's the literal, physical characteristics of heaven and what will happen to those that make it there?

[JehovahsWitness]

Separate spiritual and physical realms would be just about as far removed from each other as it's possible to be.

Oh really? This is from your scientific studies of the spiritual realm is it? Seriously how can you possibly know this?

Unless the angels, rulers, Jesus and God regularly pop down and manifest themselves in physical form on a fairly regular basis, no-one's going to interact with their leaders at all. ...

Are you not aware that the bible* has numerous instances of angelic visitation and account of spirits whether "materialised" (for want of a better word) or not manipulating objects, speaking to people or passing on divine messages? The bible even contains reports of God literally speaking to humans from heaven.

Even humans have developped wireless communication, "voice to skull" technology and no doubt holograms are not too far in the future ... how much more could be done by superior life forms!

I do not pretend to know how interealm communication would develop or by what means God's government will transmit its directives or wishes, but logically there is no valid reason to conclude it would be impossible given the biblical pattern.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

* I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491

[brunumb]

Separate spiritual and physical realms would be just about as far removed from each other as it's possible to be.

Oh really? This is from your scientific studies of the spiritual realm is it? Seriously how can you possibly know this?

Perhaps Diagoras should have prefaced that with "In my opinion...." or "I believe that...".

Unless the angels, rulers, Jesus and God regularly pop down and manifest themselves in physical form on a fairly regular basis, no-one's going to interact with their leaders at all. ...

Are you not aware that the bible has numerous instances of angelic visitation and account of spirits whether "materialised" (for want of a better word) or not manipulating the objects, speaking to people or passing'on divine messages? The bible even contains reports of God literally speaking to humans from heaven.

For all we know the bible is a work of fiction and those entities were culled from the imaginations of primitive, superstitious people. Science fiction and fantasy fiction are replete with all sorts of similar manifestations. No sign of any of them actually being real. So all we have are unsubstantiated promises of an imaginary world to come. I guess that might be enough for those who find reality less appealing.

[Diagoras]

Separate spiritual and physical realms would be just about as far removed from each other as it's possible to be.

Oh really? This is from your scientific studies of the spiritual realm is it? Seriously how can you possibly know this?

This is from my observation of the real, physical world, and using inference to determine the properties of a supposed spiritual realm.

I do not pretend to know how interealm communication would develop or by what means God's government will transmit its directives or wishes, but logically there is no valid reason to conclude it would be impossible given the biblical pattern.

<bolding mine>

There's your real problem: thinking that you can somehow use logic to determine the properties, laws and existence of something made up by people thousands of years ago. It's called 'begging the question' when there's no logical reason to assume the Bible is in any way authoritative about heaven.

I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth

Good. From that clear position, we must discard any pretence of its utility in this situation.

[JehovahsWitness]

Separate spiritual and physical realms would be just about as far removed from each other as it's possible to be.

Oh really? This is from your scientific studies of the spiritual realm is it? Seriously how can you possibly know this?

This is from my observation of the real, physical world, and using inference to determine the properties of a supposed spiritual realm.

Interesting, and how do you {quote} "determine the properties of a supposed spiritual realm"? What properties are they (please name them ) and what was the verifiable process by which you evalated these properties?

There's your real problem: thinking that you can somehow use logic to determine the properties ...

So would it be fair to conclude however you proceeded in your evaluation, you did so without using any logic ?

Thanks




JW

[Diagoras]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #54]

We can simply verify by logical definition that any spiritual world has no physical attributes (matter, energy). My position is as a methodological naturalist.

I'm not so sure that we can now find our way back to the OP's original question, but I'm willing to try. We're at least in agreement that there is no space in the physical universe that equates to a 'heaven'. You have claimed that a reason for someone to wish to reach heaven might reasonably be to become some sort of ruler. So I'll ask you a fairly straightforward question: Is becoming a heavenly ruler something that you wish or hope for yourself?

I may come across as slightly flippant when I ask about milkmaids and fax machines, but the driving force behind my posts in this thread is to find out whether people who believe in heaven have ever given much thought as to how it might 'work'. I've noticed that God's supposedly limitless powers are frequently invoked to solve what appear to be impossible problems, and there's nothing particularly wrong with believing that. But as a way of observing and interacting with the real world on a daily basis, it falls short of being practical.

[brunumb]

I may come across as slightly flippant when I ask about milkmaids and fax machines, but the driving force behind my posts in this thread is to find out whether people who believe in heaven have ever given much thought as to how it might 'work'.

I've asked about the logistics of heaven for many years. The notion of meeting up with your family and friends again, for example, is littered with so many problems and I have never received any sort of satisfactory response. This might even warrant a separate discussion, but the problems associated with heaven won't be resolved because the answers rely on nothing more than opinion and faith. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

[JehovahsWitness]

Your did not answer my question. HERE it is again...

So would it be fair to conclude however you proceeded in your evaluation, you did so without using any logic ?

Evidently by your accounts it is problematic to apply logic to determine the properties of a spiritual realm.

There's your real problem: thinking that you can somehow use logic to determine the properties ...

Emphasis MINE

.... Or is your point that *I* may not apply logic but YOU may?

These are not rhetorical questions, I would appreciate an answer.











JW

[Diagoras]

Your did not answer my question. HERE it is again...

So would it be fair to conclude however you proceeded in your evaluation, you did so without using any logic?

No, it wouldn’t.

Evidently by your accounts it is problematic to apply logic to determine the properties of a spiritual realm.

<bolding mine>

It’s only problematic to determine its properties by logic if you try to go much beyond ‘it cannot by definition contain anything physical.’

Or is your point that *I* may not apply logic but YOU may?

I hope what I wrote above will help dispel any lingering worries that I may have been unfair.

These are not rhetorical questions, I would appreciate an answer.

And you have it. How about returning the courtesy with my last question?









JW

[JehovahsWitness]

It’s only problematic to determine its properties by logic if you try to go much beyond ‘it cannot by definition contain anything physical.’

You can only speak for yourself but I accept you are not using any logic when you speak about distance ...

Separate spiritual and physical realms would be just about as far removed from each other as it's possible to be.

The effect of time on any individuals there ....

Especially when, after a few thousand years, their spiritual nature makes it difficult to connect with physical beings anymore.

And contact, communication and interaction ...

...Unless the angels, rulers, Jesus and God regularly pop down and manifest themselves in physical form on a fairly regular basis, no-one's going to interact with their leaders at all. In the real world, of course, you can do this. Heavenly leaders, on the other hand, are unapproachable. Therefore 'not much good' for earth.

I take it all your considerations therein are devoid of any logic ( since using logic would be problematic for you). I accept the limitations to your biblical analysis; it explains a lot about your conclusions.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

How about returning the courtesy with my last question?

... I'll ask you a fairly straightforward question: Is becoming a heavenly ruler something that you wish or hope for yourself?

... From that clear position, we must discard any pretence of its utility in this situation.

Then I take it you have no desire then to hear something "useless" and that you no longer want an anwser to your question from me. If that is not the case, and you let me know why you want an anwser I shall certainly reconsider my decision, not to respond at this time.





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS