God's love

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nobspeople
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God's love

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

It's said god loves humanity (it's also said god hates humanity but that's for another thread). Yet, god does do some things that, to humanity, seems, well.... not very 'loving':

According to biblical stories:
- God set up mankind to fail in the garden, which condemned mankind; one could say this allowed for god's love to provide humanity an 'out' with his son's sacrifice, though I'd counter there would be no need if there was no setup to begin with
- God leveled an entire city for it being 'bad' (for lack of a better term - everyone seems to have their own terms for this that tends to alter their POV)
- God drowned an entire planet - save a handful of people
- God drowned an entire army that followed Mosses (guess the animals in this and the above case were 'collateral damage'?)

God did these things with it could have LITERALLY done ANYTHING else it wanted. But these things... these are the things it wanted to do to people it's said to love.

Does this mean (agape love aside) is god's love different than the love humanity has?
For discussion:
If god's love is different than humanity's love, how can we know for sure anything about god's love for humanity and thus, love god outside of doing so out of fear?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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alexxcJRO
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Re: God's love

Post #31

Post by alexxcJRO »

mgb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:56 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:57 am 1. Exiting world is not the best of all possible worlds for I can imagine(and therefore God can too) a world in which moral evil exits and is still better then this world.
But it is not what you can imagine that matters. It is what is practically possible. Is it possible to have freedom without the possibility of evil? Not until mankind becomes wise through experience.
But if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent he can think of the world=A(that world does not include non-moral evil(cancer, genetic disease, natural disasters) which affect non-moral agents(infants, non-human animals, the severely mentally impaired))and create this world because is a better world.
Because God is omnipotent and omniscient, he knew which possible world was the best(A) and was able to create it, and, because he is omnibenevolent, he would chose to create A.
A does not exist.(contradiction)
Therefore God defined as omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent does not exist.

Observation: It is possible to have a world with moral evil without non-moral evil. Possibility of existence of moral evil does not disappear because natural forest fires, cancer, genetic disease do not exist.
Enjoy! 8-)
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: God's love

Post #32

Post by mgb »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:07 am Observation: It is possible to have a world with moral evil without non-moral evil. Possibility of existence of moral evil does not disappear because natural forest fires, cancer, genetic disease do not exist.
Enjoy! 8-)
Perfection is of the spirit not the material world. Perfection is eternal and infinite. Matter is finite and imperfect because it is too cramped in 4 dimensions to be perfect. This is why natural evils exist. Moral evil is a result of free will. Mankind must overcome evil if it is to regain perfection. Redemption involves a war against evil (evolutionary pressure).

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Re: God's love

Post #33

Post by alexxcJRO »

mgb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:02 pm
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:07 am Observation: It is possible to have a world with moral evil without non-moral evil. Possibility of existence of moral evil does not disappear because natural forest fires, cancer, genetic disease do not exist.
Enjoy! 8-)
Perfection is of the spirit not the material world. Perfection is eternal and infinite. Matter is finite and imperfect because it is too cramped in 4 dimensions to be perfect. This is why natural evils exist. Moral evil is a result of free will. Mankind must overcome evil if it is to regain perfection. Redemption involves a war against evil (evolutionary pressure).
Q: What's up with that convoluted nonsensical ramblings? :P

It does not refute what I said.

An omnipotent, omniscient could create such a world A and would know how to do it.
An omnibenevolent would create it for its a better world.
Since it can and it knows and it does want it the world A would exist.
Such a word A does not exist.(contradiction) Therefore an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent does not exist.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: God's love

Post #34

Post by mgb »

alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:23 pm Q: What's up with that convoluted nonsensical ramblings? :P

It does not refute what I said.

An omnipotent, omniscient could create such a world A and would know how to do it.
An omnibenevolent would create it for its a better world.
Since it can and it knows and it does want it the world A would exist.
Such a word A does not exist.(contradiction) Therefore an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent does not exist.
Omnipotent does not mean doing the impossible. World A is not possible if all the other demands are to be met. The physical world has many many demands on it: atoms must be able to form stars and planets and solar systems and proteins. Atoms must be able to form molecules, molecules must be able to form cells and so on. These parameters are extremely demanding and, because of the limitations of matter, it is not possible for them to do perfection. This is a fallen universe and that means it is imperfect. Material existence is only temporary.

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Re: God's love

Post #35

Post by alexxcJRO »

mgb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:02 pm
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:23 pm Q: What's up with that convoluted nonsensical ramblings? :P

It does not refute what I said.

An omnipotent, omniscient could create such a world A and would know how to do it.
An omnibenevolent would create it for its a better world.
Since it can and it knows and it does want it the world A would exist.
Such a word A does not exist.(contradiction) Therefore an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent does not exist.
Omnipotent does not mean doing the impossible. World A is not possible if all the other demands are to be met. The physical world has many many demands on it: atoms must be able to form stars and planets and solar systems and proteins. Atoms must be able to form molecules, molecules must be able to form cells and so on. These parameters are extremely demanding and, because of the limitations of matter, it is not possible for them to do perfection. This is a fallen universe and that means it is imperfect. Material existence is only temporary.
1. Your proving my point that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being does not exist for it cannot create A and/or does not know. Therefore not omnipotent and/or not omniscient. 8-)

2. Why does the universe have to be made of atoms, molecules, proteins and cells? Why does the universe have to be entropic in the sense it goes from low entropy to big entropy? Why it was necessary for human to appear through an imperfect mechanism as evolution?

Q: Is your god not omniscient? Does he not know to create a universe where there is no decay, no genetic defections or genetic mutations?

There are worms that are practically biologically immortal. Cancer cells are immortal.
The knowledge is there. So?

Q: How do you know that is not possible ? Are you omniscient?

3. Q: What is a fallen universe? :?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: God's love

Post #36

Post by Diagoras »

mgb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:02 pmMatter is finite and imperfect because it is too cramped in 4 dimensions to be perfect.
I'd like an explanation for this curious claim.

This is why natural evils exist. Moral evil is a result of free will.
Interesting. In the ''God's track record' thread, FaithWillDo states that "Scripture clearly says that mankind has no free will.". Maybe you and he should settle that point, so as to provide a consistent apologetic position.

Mankind must overcome evil if it is to regain perfection.
<bolding mine>

So mankind was in a state of 'perfection' at some time in the past? Presumably mankind was still made of matter, so how was it arranged in four dimensions to avoid 'cramping'?

Redemption involves a war against evil (evolutionary pressure).
The way you wrote this doesn't make clear whether evolutionary pressure is itself the evil to be fought, or the means by which evil will be fought. Either way leads to many, many more questions, of course...

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Re: God's love

Post #37

Post by nobspeople »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:39 pm
mgb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:02 pmMatter is finite and imperfect because it is too cramped in 4 dimensions to be perfect.
I'd like an explanation for this curious claim.

This is why natural evils exist. Moral evil is a result of free will.
Interesting. In the ''God's track record' thread, FaithWillDo states that "Scripture clearly says that mankind has no free will.". Maybe you and he should settle that point, so as to provide a consistent apologetic position.

Mankind must overcome evil if it is to regain perfection.
<bolding mine>

So mankind was in a state of 'perfection' at some time in the past? Presumably mankind was still made of matter, so how was it arranged in four dimensions to avoid 'cramping'?

Redemption involves a war against evil (evolutionary pressure).
The way you wrote this doesn't make clear whether evolutionary pressure is itself the evil to be fought, or the means by which evil will be fought. Either way leads to many, many more questions, of course...
When I see "Diagoras" on a reply, I'm anxious to read it! Every. Single. Time. You responses are so keen and enlightening - you're a benefit to this community.
To the thread itself, I'm an anxious to understand what 'cramping' means as used here. I'm guessing at this time it's more of 'cramming things together'...?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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