God's love

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nobspeople
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God's love

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

It's said god loves humanity (it's also said god hates humanity but that's for another thread). Yet, god does do some things that, to humanity, seems, well.... not very 'loving':

According to biblical stories:
- God set up mankind to fail in the garden, which condemned mankind; one could say this allowed for god's love to provide humanity an 'out' with his son's sacrifice, though I'd counter there would be no need if there was no setup to begin with
- God leveled an entire city for it being 'bad' (for lack of a better term - everyone seems to have their own terms for this that tends to alter their POV)
- God drowned an entire planet - save a handful of people
- God drowned an entire army that followed Mosses (guess the animals in this and the above case were 'collateral damage'?)

God did these things with it could have LITERALLY done ANYTHING else it wanted. But these things... these are the things it wanted to do to people it's said to love.

Does this mean (agape love aside) is god's love different than the love humanity has?
For discussion:
If god's love is different than humanity's love, how can we know for sure anything about god's love for humanity and thus, love god outside of doing so out of fear?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God's love

Post #2

Post by mgb »

Leibniz's 'Best Of All Possible Worlds' argument:

1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent;

2. God created the existing world;

3. God could have created a different world or none at all (i.e., there are other possible worlds);

4. Because God is omnipotent and omniscient, he knew which possible world was the best and was able to create it, and, because he is omnibenevolent, he chose to create that world;

5. Therefore, the existing world, the one that God created, is the best of all possible worlds.

What is being said here is that God balances the world in a way that minimizes evil. If God allows one evil it is to prevent worse evils from happening. This is because evil can mitigate against evil - "A house that is divided against itself must fall."

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Re: God's love

Post #3

Post by brunumb »

6. The existing world is not the best of all possible worlds, so God didn't create it. O:)
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Re: God's love

Post #4

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:57 am ...
- God set up mankind to fail in the garden, which condemned mankind; one could say this allowed for god's love to provide humanity an 'out' with his son's sacrifice, though I'd counter there would be no need if there was no setup to begin with
...
If god's love is different than humanity's love, how can we know for sure anything about god's love for humanity and thus, love god outside of doing so out of fear?
I have understood love means caring. God cares of people and doesn't do anything evil. And caring I think means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue forever. God gives time for people to repent, but if people still choose evil and do bad things, I believe God ends it, because He cares.

I don't think God set up mankind to fail. He was with the people, and if they would have wanted to ask anything, they could have done so. People knew what God said about the fruit, they ignored God and rejected Him, and there is nobody else to blame than humans themselves.

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Re: God's love

Post #5

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:40 pm I have understood love means caring. God cares of people and doesn't do anything evil. And caring I think means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue forever.
Caring, I think, means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue. How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue? And when he did try to do something about it, like drowning the planet, the incompetent one didn't even succeed.
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Re: God's love

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm

Caring, I think, means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue. How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue?
I don't believe that is necessarily true. Sometimes one has to allow evil to become manifest in order to properly deal with it. There is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: God's love

Post #7

Post by mgb »

brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:37 pm 6. The existing world is not the best of all possible worlds, so God didn't create it. O:)
The best world is not the best you can imagine. It is the best that is practically possible given mankind's freedom to do evil.

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Re: God's love

Post #8

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:26 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm

Caring, I think, means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue. How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue?
I don't believe that is necessarily true. Sometimes one has to allow evil to become manifest in order to properly deal with it. There is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out.
Like wait until it is so bad that you have to drown the planet.

Where is the love and caring in allowing evil to manifest? If there is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out, why the need to wait until it becomes manifest? Interim suffering doesn't seem to matter.
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Re: God's love

Post #9

Post by brunumb »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:41 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:37 pm 6. The existing world is not the best of all possible worlds, so God didn't create it. O:)
The best world is not the best you can imagine. It is the best that is practically possible given mankind's freedom to do evil.
Maybe a better world is one where mankind does not have the freedom to do evil.
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Re: God's love

Post #10

Post by mgb »

brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:30 am
mgb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:41 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:37 pm 6. The existing world is not the best of all possible worlds, so God didn't create it. O:)
The best world is not the best you can imagine. It is the best that is practically possible given mankind's freedom to do evil.
Maybe a better world is one where mankind does not have the freedom to do evil.
Any complex system of possibilities involves good and bad possibilities simply because it exists. Take chess, for example. Chess has an immense number of possible games. Not all of them are good chess. But bad chess exists because chess exists. The idea is to learn how to play good chess. Likewise with music; bad/good music exists because music exists. Creation involves possibilities. God is trying to show us how to be good 'chess players' and good 'musicians' and good people.

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