Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

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AgnosticBoy
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Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Many Christians interpret Romans 1:18 to mean that deep down we all know that God exists.

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21
In my view, the apostle Paul goes too far in claiming that non-believers know that the Christian God exists. However, if I'm to look for any validity in his statement, I find that I do have this feeling and/or need for something transcendent. That certainly is not enough to point to anything as specific as the God of the Bible, but it does point to spirituality, in general. One book that touches on this idea is The God Gene by Dean Hamer. Here's one review:
In Hamer's argument, spiritual experiences and religion are nearly universal human attributes. Hamer measures spirituality on a scale of 'self-transcendence', or the ability to see beyond oneself, a concept first introduced by psychologist Robert Cloninger. He draws a sharp distinction between spirituality, which is a personality trait that some of us have to a greater or lesser extent than others, and religion or belief in a particular god, which is a culturally transmitted expression of spirituality.

Hamer admits in his introduction that the volume is misnamed; he isn't talking about genes for being a god, but rather about those that predispose us to religion-neutral spiritual beliefs, experiences and interpretations. Spirituality is not controlled by the product of a single gene but is complex, involving many genes, each making a small contribution to the phenotype, combined with a very strong environmental influence.
I really want to know the following:
1. Did this feeling or sense or need for something greater play any role in leading you to religion or spirituality?
2. For the non-believer or atheist, are you aware of this feeling? Does it lead you to doubt atheism? (in my case, my doubt does not lead me to believe, but instead it drives me to search even more).
Last edited by AgnosticBoy on Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #101

Post by mgb »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #102

Post by TRANSPONDER »

mgb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.
Ah...yes...but then surely one has to establish why this or that things seems intelligent.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #103

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:43 pm
mgb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.
Ah...yes...but then surely one has to establish why this or that things seems intelligent.
Or to "establish" whether the educated and "intelligent" don't get it. (Matthew 11:25) The educated and intelligent, the elite and academia, seem to be in the room with Marx at the moment. That room generally ends up with a lot of dead people, such as in "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), as in the case of Stalin, Mao, etc. An example of "intelligent" would be the declaration of the leader of the once free world, Biden, who said the smartest person, most intelligent person he knows is his son, the live one.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #104

Post by brunumb »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:25 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:43 pm
mgb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.
Ah...yes...but then surely one has to establish why this or that things seems intelligent.
Or to "establish" whether the educated and "intelligent" don't get it. (Matthew 11:25) The educated and intelligent, the elite and academia, seem to be in the room with Marx at the moment. That room generally ends up with a lot of dead people, such as in "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), as in the case of Stalin, Mao, etc. An example of "intelligent" would be the declaration of the leader of the once free world, Biden, who said the smartest person, most intelligent person he knows is his son, the live one.
Your politically based rants are irrelevant to the thread and disrupt the conversation. TRANSPONDER said "We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent". Can you suggest what criteria we might use to establish that something big and complex would also have to be intelligent?
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #105

Post by JoeyKnothead »

brunumb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:20 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:25 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:43 pm
mgb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.
Ah...yes...but then surely one has to establish why this or that things seems intelligent.
Or to "establish" whether the educated and "intelligent" don't get it. (Matthew 11:25) The educated and intelligent, the elite and academia, seem to be in the room with Marx at the moment. That room generally ends up with a lot of dead people, such as in "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), as in the case of Stalin, Mao, etc. An example of "intelligent" would be the declaration of the leader of the once free world, Biden, who said the smartest person, most intelligent person he knows is his son, the live one.
Your politically based rants are irrelevant to the thread and disrupt the conversation. TRANSPONDER said "We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent". Can you suggest what criteria we might use to establish that something big and complex would also have to be intelligent?
So diversionary I immediately conclude one lacks the knowledge the actual topic requires.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #106

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:36 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:20 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:25 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:43 pm
mgb wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:40 pm The complexity, wonder and mystery of amazing and astonishing nature and physics is there and known with atheists too. We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent. Not until you prove it. That you have to resort to trying to wow us with complexity suggests that you can't.
One could also make the argument that if a thing seems very intelligent the default is that it is intelligent and the burden of proof is on those who challenge this default.
Ah...yes...but then surely one has to establish why this or that things seems intelligent.
Or to "establish" whether the educated and "intelligent" don't get it. (Matthew 11:25) The educated and intelligent, the elite and academia, seem to be in the room with Marx at the moment. That room generally ends up with a lot of dead people, such as in "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), as in the case of Stalin, Mao, etc. An example of "intelligent" would be the declaration of the leader of the once free world, Biden, who said the smartest person, most intelligent person he knows is his son, the live one.
Your politically based rants are irrelevant to the thread and disrupt the conversation. TRANSPONDER said "We just don't think that because it's big and complex it must be Intelligent". Can you suggest what criteria we might use to establish that something big and complex would also have to be intelligent?
So diversionary I immediately conclude one lacks the knowledge the actual topic requires.
Well, someone clearly lacks the "knowledge", or more specifically the "understanding" required (Matthew 11:25 & Daniel 12:10). With no "knowledge" of the underlying factors, one is simply blown by the winds. Creating one's own world view, is like being your own god. That kind of falls short of being a true atheist. But, as is often said, to each his own.

New American Standard Bible James 1:6
But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #107

Post by JoeyKnothead »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:46 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:36 pm So diversionary I immediately conclude one lacks the knowledge the actual topic requires.
Well, someone clearly lacks the "knowledge", or more specifically the "understanding" required (Matthew 11:25 & Daniel 12:10). With no "knowledge" of the underlying factors, one is simply blown by the winds. Creating one's own world view, is like being your own god. That kind of falls short of being a true atheist. But, as is often said, to each his own.

New American Standard Bible James 1:6
But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
Now, is that Biden, the left, antifa, and Big Bird missing that "knowledge"?

Or is it just the folks on this site?
On the issue of knowledge, you have a bible.

You have absolutely no knowledge its claims are true and factual.

You're just another of them preachers who can't show he speaks truth, so you spit out bile and hatred on any target that fails to live according to your ancient superstitions.

Now, on to them dirty filthy (insert your daily target of vitriol).
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #108

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]
1. Did this feeling or sense or need for something greater play any role in leading you to religion or spirituality?
2. For the non-believer or atheist, are you aware of this feeling? Does it lead you to doubt atheism? (in my case, my doubt does not lead me to believe, but instead it drives me to search even more).
For many, I think the answer to #1 is YES. I suggest this is the reason why religions were created in the first place.
For #2, I think for some, the answer is YES they are aware but NO it doesn't lead to doubt.
But people are all unique in their ideals and experiences so answers would likely be 'all across the board', as it were.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #109

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:17 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:46 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:36 pm So diversionary I immediately conclude one lacks the knowledge the actual topic requires.
Well, someone clearly lacks the "knowledge", or more specifically the "understanding" required (Matthew 11:25 & Daniel 12:10). With no "knowledge" of the underlying factors, one is simply blown by the winds. Creating one's own world view, is like being your own god. That kind of falls short of being a true atheist. But, as is often said, to each his own.

New American Standard Bible James 1:6
But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
Now, is that Biden, the left, antifa, and Big Bird missing that "knowledge"?

Or is it just the folks on this site?
On the issue of knowledge, you have a bible.

You have absolutely no knowledge its claims are true and factual.

You're just another of them preachers who can't show he speaks truth, so you spit out bile and hatred on any target that fails to live according to your ancient superstitions.

Now, on to them dirty filthy (insert your daily target of vitriol).
Maybe you should actually read the Law and the prophets. One current event, based on the wars to end wars, was the revival of Judah, the Jews, and Jerusalem passing into Jewish control (Joel 3:1-2), in 1948, which is to lead into the judgment of nations, and the coming kingdom of God (Zechariah 14 & Daniel 2:45). As for the lawless/godless/Progressive/Marxist Antifa, and the failing "Biden", who said that Antifa does not exist, the lawless will be according to Matthew 13:41-42, tossed into the furnace of fire, the great tribulation. As the prophets have said, one is to warn of the coming crisis. Consider this message as a forewarning. That way the blood of the warned, will not be on the head of those who do the warning. (Ezekiel 33:6)

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Re: Does Romans 1:18-20 create doubt for atheists?

Post #110

Post by JoeyKnothead »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:34 pm Maybe you should actually read the Law and the prophets. One current event, based on the wars to end wars, was the revival of Judah, the Jews, and Jerusalem passing into Jewish control (Joel 3:1-2), in 1948, which is to lead into the judgment of nations, and the coming kingdom of God (Zechariah 14 & Daniel 2:45). As for the lawless/godless/Progressive/Marxist Antifa, and the failing "Biden", who said that Antifa does not exist, the lawless will be according to Matthew 13:41-42, tossed into the furnace of fire, the great tribulation. As the prophets have said, one is to warn of the coming crisis. Consider this message as a forewarning. That way the blood of the warned, will not be on the head of those who do the warning. (Ezekiel 33:6)
Meh. Make your predictions vague enough and they all come true.

"Tossed into the furnace of fire."
"Blood on their head".

Your religion's a pox on humanity. It belongs to Nazi Germany. It's violence and hatred and slander and insult. Your religion defaces the very idea of peace and harmony. I'd rather bed down with my pigs than to breathe the same air that provides you sustenance.

Your constant, unremitting attacks on perceived "enemies" draws comparison to my own schizophrenia. At least I'm fortunate enough to have folks around who love me, and are willing to help me down off the ledge.

Your kind of discourse is what's tearing this world apart. Like me when I get off my meds, we see demons and disaster all around. We hate and we loathe. We find disgust in all that we don't like.

Fortunately, I have meds to stop my anger and hatred.

The Christian has a book that only fuels theirs.

But we must realize, a good bunch of y'all Christians prefer hatred over rational discourse.

The hater'll find the hate, if he's gotta urinate on Jesus' corpse to do it.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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