Would you still believe if....

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nobspeople
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Would you still believe if....

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #2

Post by alexxcJRO »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Worshiping, praise, adoration, gratuitous submission has evil, malevolent connotations and it’s related to an inflated ego.

Totalitarian, evil, malevolent characters such as Hitler, Ceausescu, Kim Il-sung, Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatin, Frieza required adoration, worship, praise and gratuitous submission from their followers.

If a very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent and wise being exist it will be akin to the likes of Yoda, Goku, Gandhi, Buddha. It would not require worship, praise, adoration and gratuitous submission from anybody.
It is possible a very powerful being exists and is indifferent in respect to the well being and affairs of humans akin to the likes of Azeroth.

Azathoth is a mindless force of Chaos-objective randomness that happens to be extremely powerful. He simply is. Existing but not much else. With no real ability to think in either the abstract sense or the simple way non-human animals way. In his random, unintelligibly, mindless way Azathoth created or dreamed the universe as we know it into existence. He did this unintentionally, unaware of the occurrence. He will be equally oblivious, unaware when he destroys it. There's no point behind his actions, it's just happenstance when he does something.

“Azathoth is a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos. He is the ruler of the Outer Gods,[1] and may be seen as a symbol for primordial chaos.
[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.[11]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth

The concept of worship is meaningless for
1. If it is required it comes probably from an untrusty malevolent, egotistic being. No point in giving it.
2. For a mindless force like Azathoth its unnecessary and irrelevant.
3. For a minded very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent being its unnecessary as it is not required conform the ontology of such being.
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:18 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Worshiping, praise, adoration, gratuitous submission has evil, malevolent connotations and it’s related to an inflated ego.

Totalitarian, evil, malevolent characters such as Hitler, Ceausescu, Kim Il-sung, Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatin, Frieza required adoration, worship, praise and gratuitous submission from their followers.

If a very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent and wise being exist it will be akin to the likes of Yoda, Goku, Gandhi, Buddha. It would not require worship, praise, adoration and gratuitous submission from anybody.
It is possible a very powerful being exists and is indifferent in respects to the well being and affairs of humans akin to the likes of Azeroth.

Azathoth is a mindless force of Chaos-objective randomness that happens to be extremely powerful. He simply is. Existing but not much else. With no real ability to think in either the abstract sense or the simple way non-human animals way. In his random, unintelligibly, mindless way Azathoth created or dreamed the universe as we know it into existence. He did this unintentionally, unaware of the occurrence. He will be equally oblivious, unaware when he destroys it. There's no point behind his actions, it's just happenstance when he does something.

“Azathoth is a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos. He is the ruler of the Outer Gods,[1] and may be seen as a symbol for primordial chaos.
[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.[11]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth

The concept of worship is meaningless for
1. If it is required it comes probably from an untrusty malevolent, egotistic being. No point in giving it.
2. For a mindless force like Azathoth its unnecessary and irrelevant.
3. For a minded very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent being its unnecessary as it is not required conform the ontology of such being.
I think any being worth of worship wouldn't want worship as many religious groups seem to do these days. That said, it's entirely possible for a 'thing' that is worshipped to not want to be worshipped. In other words, don't hold being worshipped against something that is worshipped.
That said, I think there are times when worship benefits the person worshipping. Sometimes, a person may need to 'something bigger than me that's pulling for me' benefit them. While this 'benefit' could be found from things other than worship, it may be easier for them to simply worship than self love.
Your point about Azathoth is an interesting one that I haven't considered prior. Thanks for that!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #4

Post by alexxcJRO »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:18 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Worshiping, praise, adoration, gratuitous submission has evil, malevolent connotations and it’s related to an inflated ego.

Totalitarian, evil, malevolent characters such as Hitler, Ceausescu, Kim Il-sung, Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatin, Frieza required adoration, worship, praise and gratuitous submission from their followers.

If a very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent and wise being exist it will be akin to the likes of Yoda, Goku, Gandhi, Buddha. It would not require worship, praise, adoration and gratuitous submission from anybody.
It is possible a very powerful being exists and is indifferent in respects to the well being and affairs of humans akin to the likes of Azeroth.

Azathoth is a mindless force of Chaos-objective randomness that happens to be extremely powerful. He simply is. Existing but not much else. With no real ability to think in either the abstract sense or the simple way non-human animals way. In his random, unintelligibly, mindless way Azathoth created or dreamed the universe as we know it into existence. He did this unintentionally, unaware of the occurrence. He will be equally oblivious, unaware when he destroys it. There's no point behind his actions, it's just happenstance when he does something.

“Azathoth is a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos. He is the ruler of the Outer Gods,[1] and may be seen as a symbol for primordial chaos.
[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.[11]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth

The concept of worship is meaningless for
1. If it is required it comes probably from an untrusty malevolent, egotistic being. No point in giving it.
2. For a mindless force like Azathoth its unnecessary and irrelevant.
3. For a minded very powerful, very knowledgeable, very benevolent being its unnecessary as it is not required conform the ontology of such being.
I think any being worth of worship wouldn't want worship as many religious groups seem to do these days. That said, it's entirely possible for a 'thing' that is worshipped to not want to be worshipped. In other words, don't hold being worshipped against something that is worshipped.
That said, I think there are times when worship benefits the person worshipping. Sometimes, a person may need to 'something bigger than me that's pulling for me' benefit them. While this 'benefit' could be found from things other than worship, it may be easier for them to simply worship than self love.
Your point about Azathoth is an interesting one that I haven't considered prior. Thanks for that!

I think a being who is worth of praise would not desire such a thing: being worshiped.
I said a being requiring praise, worship, adulation and gratuitous submission would point to an evil, malevolent being.
The following fact “people praising a being” does tell us nothing of the nature of said being, being benevolent, malevolent or mindless and indifferent. It would just tells about humans behaviour, its weakness, deep rooted desire to have idols, to follow.
Your welcome.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #5

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #4]
I think a being who is worth of praise would not desire such a thing: being worshiped.
I said a being requiring praise, worship, adulation and gratuitous submission would point to an evil, malevolent being.
The following fact “people praising a being” does tell us nothing of the nature of said being, being benevolent, malevolent or mindless and indifferent. It would just tells about humans behaviour, its weakness, deep rooted desire to have idols, to follow.
Your welcome.
I would agree generally speaking.
And it's 'you're' :wink: :tongue:

That said, do you think people that worship the christian god would change their worshipping if the being is imperfect and mortal?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #6

Post by alexxcJRO »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:37 am [Replying to alexxcJRO in post #4]
I think a being who is worth of praise would not desire such a thing: being worshiped.
I said a being requiring praise, worship, adulation and gratuitous submission would point to an evil, malevolent being.
The following fact “people praising a being” does tell us nothing of the nature of said being, being benevolent, malevolent or mindless and indifferent. It would just tells about humans behaviour, its weakness, deep rooted desire to have idols, to follow.
Your welcome.
I would agree generally speaking.
And it's 'you're' :wink: :tongue:

That said, do you think people that worship the christian god would change their worshipping if the being is imperfect and mortal?
People worship mortal beings(other "famous" people) now.
Some will still worship Jesus I think but for many would mean end of their belief.
The God of the bible requiring praise, worship, adulation and gratuitous submission points to a malevolent being.
Together with bible saying God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent but has free will, is impotent to do certain things, ignorant of certain things, condones, sanctions or orders or commits genocides, mass killings or causes major suffering, pain against/to non-moral agents(infants, mentally impaired, non-human animals) points to an incoherent concept-logical impossibility. Therefore non-existence.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:54 am
Together with bible saying God is omnipotent, [and ] impotent ...an incoherent concept-logical impossibility.
Obviously being simultaneously "omnipotent, [and ] impotent ..." is a logical impossibility but the bible does not say this is the case.


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:44 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:54 am
Together with bible saying God is omnipotent, [and ] impotent ...an incoherent concept-logical impossibility.
Obviously being simultaneously "omnipotent, [and ] impotent ..." is a logical impossibility but the bible does not say this is the case.


JW
I've found that logic and the bible don't go well together:
plague of insects and frogs, drowning the planet, talking and burning bush that doesn't get consumed....
If god can do all these illogical things, logic need not apply
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #9

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am ....floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god .... is, relatively, simple in its actions.
...
So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Bible says:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Pure religion [religious worship] and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

If it would be so that God would be just an alien, I would expect those two still to be true. And I think they are good anyway.

And about how simple God is, I don’t think you are even close to His level of thinking, sorry.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:57 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:44 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:54 am
Together with bible saying God is omnipotent, [and ] impotent ...an incoherent concept-logical impossibility.
Obviously being simultaneously "omnipotent, [and ] impotent ..." is a logical impossibility but the bible does not say this is the case.


JW
I've found that logic and the bible don't go well together:
plague of insects and frogs, drowning the planet, talking and burning bush that doesn't get consumed....
If god can do all these illogical things, logic need not apply

Who are you telling me that? What was that got to do with what I just posted? I said the bible does not say God is simultaneously "omnipotent, [and ] impotent ..." do you have something you would'like to ask or challenge me on related to my statement ?



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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