Would you still believe if....

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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Would you still believe if....

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #21

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #20]

The issue I currently have with the moral argument is that it appears artificial re the rest of the universe.

To note - your expression "help me be moral" in that light - is artificial, and also means different things to different people. Morality appears to be a function of human consciousness impinging itself into a reality that otherwise is neutral re such matters.

Thus we are acting unnaturally in relation to invention and distribution of morality and accompanying enforced laws.
On the other hand, social economy's would not flourish without morality.

Thus we might also need to take a look at those in order to identify artificiality...an easy enough ask.

Do objective morals exist?

Overall - morality exists as a force of nature re consciousness - so may not really be that artificial after-all...

...objective morals exist because consciousness within the natural universe, makes it so...

yet consciousness is subjective in nature...

Perhaps the overall point is that if we are forced by aliens to 'do the right thing' morally speaking - and the way shown forward is benevolent to all involved, would that be immoral?

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #22

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Apparently, your god, yourself, is morally superior to anyone else's God. And no, I do not worship your god, whose morality is fashioned to suit his own needs.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #23

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:18 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:00 pm

I pointed out that logic need not apply to things of the bible as much of it is illogical.
Okay I don't see that as falsifying anything I said, do you? If so, what and how? If not, thanks for sharing.
Perhaps nobspeople should have prefaced his reply with "In my opinion....." :D
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #24

Post by JoeyKnothead »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:30 pm Apparently, your god, yourself, is morally superior to anyone else's God. And no, I do not worship your god, whose morality is fashioned to suit his own needs.
Accusing atheists / agnostics of being their own god is nothing but plain old fashioned projection.

The theist is the one who is "their own god", cause it's the theist who so often legislates according to that theist's unproven assertions of what their 'god' thinks.

The ever magical theist, and his ever magical pronouncements. It's hilarious.
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Invention is using things discovered.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #25

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:19 pmPerhaps the overall point is that if we are forced by aliens to 'do the right thing' morally speaking - and the way shown forward is benevolent to all involved, would that be immoral?
Possibly, yes. If morality isn't simply the greater good, but a set of rules inscribed on the fabric of the universe, then what is wrong, is still wrong, even if it helps all and hurts none.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #26

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #25]
If morality isn't simply the greater good, but a set of rules inscribed on the fabric of the universe, then what is wrong, is still wrong, even if it helps all and hurts none.
A "set of rules inscribed on the fabric of the universe" implies that morality is an objective universal reality...

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #27

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #19]
Okay. You didnt ask me about my beliefs...Well, if you ever do want to as me if I ... {quote}"believe the bible is true?"... I'm sure you will know how to put it so I can identify if I am being asked a question or not.
No. That was sarcasm to prove a point which I've outlined more than once :roll:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #28

Post by nobspeople »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:30 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Apparently, your god, yourself, is morally superior to anyone else's God. And no, I do not worship your god, whose morality is fashioned to suit his own needs.
Ain't it funny how all god suit our own needs, including God?
Weird?
No.
Convenient?
Yes!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #29

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:36 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:30 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 am God (the modern, christian interpretation of) were to be a mortal race of advanced beings?

Looking at the bible itself, the OT god seems all vengeful, angry and serious, while the NT god seems to be about loving, kindness, forgiveness and, for lack of a better term, providing a 'way' out of the mess made by the OT god.

Looking at all the miracle pontificated about in the bible, you see a lot of 'natural' causes - floods, insects for examples - that one would think, would be beneath a supreme supernatural being. If a being can do anything (aka god, creator of all that is) why use water to kill? Why not simply 'pull a Thanos'? A simple finger snap. Or a thought. Or, use some sort of here-to-fore unknown source of power that can't be explained. Why not only 'wow' humanity but humble them beyond reason?

So, to me, it seems this can-do-anything-god that so many worshipped doesn't live up to the hype and is, relatively, simple in its actions.

Add to this all the other 'gods' from other cultures - many of which share the same or very, very similar stories, and I wonder how immortal and supernatural god actually is. Why can't these gods be a race of supreme, but mortal and flawed, beings? Surely humans could seem that way to ants. Or fish. Imagine the stories a fish would have to tell his friends once he's caught, removed from his environment, then returned!

So, if gods (including your god) were shown to be a mortal, flawed, supreme (by human standards) being, would it change you you see it? Would it change how you worship it?
Apparently, your god, yourself, is morally superior to anyone else's God. And no, I do not worship your god, whose morality is fashioned to suit his own needs.
Ain't it funny how all god suit our own needs, including God?
Weird?
No.
Convenient?
Yes!
With God, one keeps His Law, or suffer the consequences. Of course, you must set apart the followers of false prophet Paul, who think lawlessness is okay for the "many", and simply blame the consequences on being a gift from Satan to keep them humble. Somehow, the humble part apparently never got initiated. But on the other hand, as you are your own moral compass, and your own god, without a Satan/devil, except for the witches, I guess your consequences come from some errant alpha particle from space.

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Re: Would you still believe if....

Post #30

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:25 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:30 pm Apparently, your god, yourself, is morally superior to anyone else's God. And no, I do not worship your god, whose morality is fashioned to suit his own needs.
Accusing atheists / agnostics of being their own god is nothing but plain old fashioned projection.

The theist is the one who is "their own god", cause it's the theist who so often legislates according to that theist's unproven assertions of what their 'god' thinks.

The ever magical theist, and his ever magical pronouncements. It's hilarious.
Actually, with your apparent vitriol towards "theist", you appear more an anti-theist than an atheist. If you don't use the Laws of God to determine right from wrong (morality), then you either fall back to following Marx, or your own heart and mind, which would entail setting yourself up as a god, much as with the followers of the devil's false prophet Paul, who think God's law is in their heart and mind, yet in general, continue to live a life of hypocrisy. I think there is little difference from those who call themselves "atheist", from those who call themselves "Christians", in general. They all follow their own hearts and minds, prompted by false prophets, regardless, of the condition of those hearts and minds.

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