God's 'track record'

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nobspeople
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God's 'track record'

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In another thread, a poster said the following:
Does that good track record, overall include eliminating war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering?
It made me wonder, how would god's track record rate?

Let's look at biblically supplied highlights (not in chronical order necessarily):
God created everything :approve:
Then it made man :approve:
Then mad was tempted by satan
This would mean god made satan and allowed satan to tempt man, knowing (if god's all knowing) that man would sin :confused2:
Then god got mad and pouted like a spoiled child (editorializing a bit there but you get the jest) and made man to suffer through sin and ultimately die :confused2:
God asks a guy to sacrifice his son, which he tries but then god sends an angel to stop it :ok:
God gets upset with a city and obliterates it from the planet :blink:
God gets upset with humanity and drowns all terrestrial life (including babies, women in the middle of child birth, animals (which have NOTHING to do with man's sin) and plants) :no:
God THEN offers a sacrifice to sin as himself/son/self/son/self (the debate still lingers as to the specifics of this person)
This person lives a life to his early 30s :approve:
God allows a guy to betray himself/son/self/etc and allows history to see this guy as a traitor when, in all actuality, SOME guy had to do this in order to complete god's 'plan' :facepalm:
Then this god/man/god/man dies and raises from the dead :bigeyes: :approve:
God allows mankind's history to be told in 'the bible', even though there are Es and Os which cause confusion for the remainder of humanity :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Being that humanity is IMPERFECT and god (is said to be) PERFECT, we can't legitimately judge the two with the same measurement.
So let's judge god's 'track record':
:approve: or
:confused2: or
:down:
How would YOU judge god's work?
How should god's work be judged?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #81

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #57]
God's plan for this creation is perfect and is without mistake or regret.
So they say. And surely, if god is the deity it's said to be, our feeble minds can't truly understand it. Thus, we have to rely on 'faith'. The problem I (and others) have is thus:
Why would god give humanity thinking, reasoning minds and THEN say 'Nope - I'm not gonna' tell ya' - you have to believe in me with faith!'
With knowledge, faith isn't necessary. Which is why people created a god that knows everything but tells the same people 'you need faith' IMO.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #82

Post by JoeyKnothead »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:39 am As I said, God does not reveal His plan to mankind. He purposely keeps it hidden from them.
Then pitches a hissy fit when things don't go according to plan.

I can't imagine the problems I'd encounter building me a building without me a set of plans.
However, He does reveal His truth and plan to His Elect, the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind and only then after they have been converted.
...
So he gives that set of plans to the very humans so fallen and all such as that.

It's looking more and more like God's Wyle E. Coyote.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #83

Post by FaithWillDo »

Diagoras wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:11 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
FaithWillDo wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:31 pmGod holds us accountable (not responsible) for our sins because we believe that we do them willingly.
We choose to do them, do you mean? That's at odds with your previous claim that "mankind has no free will".
Dear Diagoras,
You do not understand what "free will" is.

Here is the definition: the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints or control.

Mankind has a "will" and can make choices. That is fully supported by scripture and by what we can observe in the world. But having a "free will" is different from just having a "will". If we have a "free will", then we would have a "will" that is free to make choices without divine restraints or control.

Now read these verses which teach on this issue of whether mankind has a "free will" or not:

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.


Clearly, God's Word says we do NOT have a free will.

Computers make choices but no one would believe that the choices they make are "uncaused" by the programmer. But with man, since God's work in man's heart is imperceptible by our senses, the truth is not so obvious. We must rely on God's Word to tell us if we have a "free will" or not.

Do you have enough faith to believe what God's Word says, without seeing the evidence provided by your senses?

2Cor 5:2 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

If we are truly walking by the Spirit of God, we trust what God tells us, even if our senses can't confirm it. That is faith. And that is the same faith that saves us.

Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #84

Post by FaithWillDo »

cms wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:22 am
FaithWillDo wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:17 pm 2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
FaithWillDo, If God moved David against Israel, then why is Satan necessary?

You also said that if someone does you wrong, then it's easy to forgive them. Why would you need to forgive them if it was God who caused them to do it. It might be better to take up the matter with God.
FaithWillDo wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:31 pm But someday, at the time of God's choosing, mankind will learn to trust God for all things, even their own decisions and actions.
If God is doing all the willing, then there would be no "their own decisions." In fact, there wouldn't even be a you, or I, a he, him, she, etc.etc.

Isaiah 65:12 "Because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and CHOSE that which I did not delight."
There are many verses in the Bible like the example above which show that we are capable of doing something other than what God tells us.
Dear cms,
You asked:
FaithWillDo, If God moved David against Israel, then why is Satan necessary?

God does not directly tempt mankind and that is why He used Satan to tempt David:

James 1:3 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God uses Satan and evil spirits for that work.

You asked:
You also said that if someone does you wrong, then it's easy to forgive them. Why would you need to forgive them if it was God who caused them to do it. It might be better to take up the matter with God.

When we sin, we do so willingly. God holds us accountable for that sin to teach us about His righteousness (knowing good from evil), but He holds Himself responsible for it. For that reason and others, God sent Christ to suffer and die on the cross. By sending Christ, God took the responsibility in correcting our marred spiritual condition in which He created us. Once Christ completes His work of conversion within each person, no one will ever sin again.

As for me forgiving those who sin against me, I do so because of God's loving and forgiving nature which dwells within me. And strictly from a logical point of view, what right would I have to ask God or others to forgive me of my sins, if I am not willing to forgive others of their sins? I know that in the future God is going to correct everyone's sin nature (conversion) and that they are going to be my brothers in Christ. Knowing this truth, it is easy to forgive them because of the love God has placed in my heart for them. It is the same love Christ has for us, while we, too are yet sinners.

As for "taking the matter up with God", Paul evidently received similar comments as yours when He was teaching this truth about God's "will" ruling supreme over mankind's "will". Here is how Paul replied:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

You said:
If God is doing all the willing, then there would be no "their own decisions." In fact, there wouldn't even be a you, or I, a he, him, she, etc.etc.

This answer is complicated so please bear with me.

Christ and mankind are living "souls" and because we are, we have separate consciousnesses. However, we are controlled by the spirit we each have within us. It is the spirit within us that causes us to "will". Christ's Spirit which dwells in Him is the full measure of the Father's Holy Spirit. Mankind's spirit we have from birth is a flawed spirit.

At present, mankind's "will" is contrary to God's "will" because we have different spirits. As a result, God must intervene and rule over man's "will" so that we do and say what He wants. But this will not always be the case. Someday, God will have our "will" so perfectly matched to His "will" that there will be no differences and no need for God to intervene.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


God accomplishes our "oneness" with Him by giving us the full measure of the Holy Spirit, just like He did with Christ. Once mankind is fully converted, we will "make decisions" but because we have the full measure of God's Holy Spirit, those decisions will be perfectly matched to God's decisions.

Anyway, that is how I understand it from the limited amount of truth that has been revealed to us from scripture. I am sure there is still much more that Christ doesn't reveal to us because we simply are not be able to understand it at this time.

Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #85

Post by FaithWillDo »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:17 am [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #57]
God's plan for this creation is perfect and is without mistake or regret.
So they say. And surely, if god is the deity it's said to be, our feeble minds can't truly understand it. Thus, we have to rely on 'faith'. The problem I (and others) have is thus:
Why would god give humanity thinking, reasoning minds and THEN say 'Nope - I'm not gonna' tell ya' - you have to believe in me with faith!'
With knowledge, faith isn't necessary. Which is why people created a god that knows everything but tells the same people 'you need faith' IMO.
Dear nobspeople,
Here is God's response to your comments:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God is mankind's creator and He rules supreme over His creation. Who are we to question the ways of God?

I will say this though: God is purposely "veiling" Himself from mankind at this time to suit His own purposes. Once His purposes are satisfied, He will reveal Himself to each and every person at a time of His choosing. I have written a great deal about this time of "unveiling", but since you have no faith, it would not be of any benefit to discuss it further with you.

Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #86

Post by nobspeople »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:59 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:17 am [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #57]
God's plan for this creation is perfect and is without mistake or regret.
So they say. And surely, if god is the deity it's said to be, our feeble minds can't truly understand it. Thus, we have to rely on 'faith'. The problem I (and others) have is thus:
Why would god give humanity thinking, reasoning minds and THEN say 'Nope - I'm not gonna' tell ya' - you have to believe in me with faith!'
With knowledge, faith isn't necessary. Which is why people created a god that knows everything but tells the same people 'you need faith' IMO.
Dear nobspeople,
Here is God's response to your comments:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God is mankind's creator and He rules supreme over His creation. Who are we to question the ways of God?

I will say though: God is purposely "veiling" Himself from mankind at this time to suit His own purposes. Once His purposes are satisfied, He will reveal Himself to each and every person at a time of His choosing. I have written a great deal about this time of "unveiling", but since you have no faith, it would not be of any benefit to discuss it further with you.

Joe
Those are man's comments, not god's. God didn't write the bible. Even if god did (which it didn't) I'm not interested in what it says any longer; I've read the bible already and could look it up myself if I wanted a 'refresh'. I'm interested in what YOU say about it for any future reference.
In regards to 'veiling' itself, I find that not at all loving. Why? Because that can cause doubt, which can keep one from god, which isn't what god is said to want. But maybe god's not loving, as some say. If so, it's not worth anyone's time IMO.
Faith is the convenient scapegoat of the believer; if they can't show X to be try, they tell us to us 'faith'. You can't have true faith in something that veils itself from you as you don't know it and never 'see' it. Thinking so is hysterically sad IMO.
It's convenient, for sure, to rely on faith, which can't be shown to be true or false or anything more than wishful thinking.

But all this shows what you think of god's track record. Thanks for participating.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

cms

Re: God's 'track record'

Post #87

Post by cms »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am God does not directly tempt mankind and that is why He used Satan to tempt David:
FaithWillDo, David still had a choice since tempting and willing are not the same thing.
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am When we sin, we do so willingly.
I'm confused. You said before that we don't willingly sin,but that God wills us to do so.
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am Christ and mankind are living "souls" and because we are, we have separate consciousnesses. However, we are controlled by the spirit we each have within us. It is the spirit within us that causes us to "will". Christ's Spirit which dwells in Him is the full measure of the Father's Holy Spirit. Mankind's spirit we have from birth is a flawed spirit.

At present, mankind's "will" is contrary to God's "will" because we have different spirits. As a result, God must intervene and rule over man's "will" so that we do and say what He wants. But this will not always be the case. Someday, God will have our "will" so perfectly matched to His "will" that there will be no differences and no need for God to intervene.
Even more confusing: From what you're saying here, it is a flawed spirit that causes us to will an not God's Spirit. In other words, you seem to be saying that we have a separate will. How can man's will be contrary to God's will if God wills us to do evil or good. In such a case, nothing would be contrary to God's will
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:36 am I don't believe I sin willingly. Not for a second.
Purple Knight, maybe the problem is in thinking that you have no free will to either sin or not to sin. In which case you would be stuck in your sin.

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #88

Post by Diagoras »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 amIf we have a "free will", then we would have a "will" that is free to make choices without divine restraints or control.

Now read these verses which teach on this issue…
Assuming facts not in evidence (divine restraints or control), and no amount of reading is going to change that.

cms

Re: God's 'track record'

Post #89

Post by cms »

FaithWillDo, To get a better understanding, a few more questions have come to mind.
Are you saying that God wills people to do good and evil? If so,then why not just will people to do good? Or are you saying that God wills people to do things which are contrary to His will in order to get them to do the things which are actually not contrary to His will? It makes more sense to me to say that God gives us free will so that we might learn from our own mistakes.

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #90

Post by FaithWillDo »

cms wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am God does not directly tempt mankind and that is why He used Satan to tempt David:
FaithWillDo, David still had a choice since tempting and willing are not the same thing.
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am When we sin, we do so willingly.
I'm confused. You said before that we don't willingly sin,but that God wills us to do so.
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am Christ and mankind are living "souls" and because we are, we have separate consciousnesses. However, we are controlled by the spirit we each have within us. It is the spirit within us that causes us to "will". Christ's Spirit which dwells in Him is the full measure of the Father's Holy Spirit. Mankind's spirit we have from birth is a flawed spirit.

At present, mankind's "will" is contrary to God's "will" because we have different spirits. As a result, God must intervene and rule over man's "will" so that we do and say what He wants. But this will not always be the case. Someday, God will have our "will" so perfectly matched to His "will" that there will be no differences and no need for God to intervene.
Even more confusing: From what you're saying here, it is a flawed spirit that causes us to will an not God's Spirit. In other words, you seem to be saying that we have a separate will. How can man's will be contrary to God's will if God wills us to do evil or good. In such a case, nothing would be contrary to God's will
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:36 am I don't believe I sin willingly. Not for a second.
Purple Knight, maybe the problem is in thinking that you have no free will to either sin or not to sin. In which case you would be stuck in your sin.
Dear cms,
You said:
I'm confused. You said before that we don't willingly sin, but that God wills us to do so.

Yes, you do seem confused. I'll try and make it more clear for you. God does not operate in this world by forcing our "will" to conform to His "will". But He does cause our "will" to match to His "will". He does this without our knowledge. So when a person makes a decision to do anything, it seems that they make the decision from their supposed "free will", but in fact, God prepared their heart and gave them the answer from their tongue to do as He wanted them to do. We are ignorant of how and when God did His work in us but scripture clearly says He does it.

Look at this example and maybe it will be clearer.

When a person makes a confession of faith and they accept Jesus as their "Lord", it seems to them that they did it from their own "free will". But they did not. God's Word says:

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

No one can accept Jesus as their "Lord" unless Jesus has come to them first and given them the gift of the Holy Spirit. After Jesus gives us this gift, in contrast, no one can call Jesus accused. The only decision they can make is to accept Jesus as their "Lord". When a person makes this confession, it is EVIDENCE of the work that Christ has done within them. It is spiritual work. This event of accepting Jesus as Lord is called the Early Rain of the Spirit and is the same event when Christ calls an unbeliever out from the world. At that point, they enter the "church". It is 100% the work of Christ that anyone become a believer.

Paul's conversion is the pattern that all mankind will eventually follow. It's a little detailed but that is only because Christ wants His Elect, those He has given "eyes that can see", to understand the full pathway to salvation.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ in our "marred" spiritual condition as is commonly taught. If we did, it would be a "work". If Christ decides to come to a person in the present age, it is a spiritual event which happens "within" us (Luke 17:21). Christ is now "spirit" and cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately accept Jesus as Lord just as Paul did. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains.

Since the new believer is still carnally minded and spiritually blind upon receiving the Early Rain, they cannot recognize the “voice” which calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains hidden (veiled) from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” (works) to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for "3" days (represents a spiritual process is taking place). Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence. This happens to everyone who has been called out.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth) from God's Word.

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the flesh.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and Paul is “born again”. “Saul” is now given the new name of “Paul”, a child of God.

You said:
Even more confusing: From what you're saying here, it is a flawed spirit that causes us to will an not God's Spirit. In other words, you seem to be saying that we have a separate will. How can man's will be contrary to God's will if God wills us to do evil or good. In such a case, nothing would be contrary to God's will.

Mankind is a "living soul" and has a separate consciousness & "will" that is separate from God. However, our spirit is totally controlled by God through our hearts. Mankind cannot operate outside of God's "will". Our "will" is not "free".

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.


In our created state, we do not have the Holy Spirit operating within us. We have a "marred" spirit that is weak. Because of this weakness, we are easily controlled by our flesh (we develop a carnal mind) and are easily deceived by Satan (Satan was made for this purpose). But in this spiritual condition, God still causes our "marred" spirit to comply with His "will". Much like what this verse says:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

So in that sense, (as you said), nothing is contrary to God's "will" but only because God does not allow anything to be contrary to His "will". We have a "will" but it is not free.

Look at this verse:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ causes all things to be as they are. Everything in this creation happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. No one (not even Satan) directs their own path that is contrary to the path God lays out for them to follow.

In our spiritually blind, carnally minded condition we presently have, we have no ability to sense the work that God does in our heart to accomplish His "will":

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

We can only know that God is working in our hearts because He tells us He is through scripture. It takes faith to believe Him since our senses cannot detect His work in our hearts. We must walk by faith and not by sight.

Joe

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