God's 'track record'

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nobspeople
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God's 'track record'

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In another thread, a poster said the following:
Does that good track record, overall include eliminating war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering?
It made me wonder, how would god's track record rate?

Let's look at biblically supplied highlights (not in chronical order necessarily):
God created everything :approve:
Then it made man :approve:
Then mad was tempted by satan
This would mean god made satan and allowed satan to tempt man, knowing (if god's all knowing) that man would sin :confused2:
Then god got mad and pouted like a spoiled child (editorializing a bit there but you get the jest) and made man to suffer through sin and ultimately die :confused2:
God asks a guy to sacrifice his son, which he tries but then god sends an angel to stop it :ok:
God gets upset with a city and obliterates it from the planet :blink:
God gets upset with humanity and drowns all terrestrial life (including babies, women in the middle of child birth, animals (which have NOTHING to do with man's sin) and plants) :no:
God THEN offers a sacrifice to sin as himself/son/self/son/self (the debate still lingers as to the specifics of this person)
This person lives a life to his early 30s :approve:
God allows a guy to betray himself/son/self/etc and allows history to see this guy as a traitor when, in all actuality, SOME guy had to do this in order to complete god's 'plan' :facepalm:
Then this god/man/god/man dies and raises from the dead :bigeyes: :approve:
God allows mankind's history to be told in 'the bible', even though there are Es and Os which cause confusion for the remainder of humanity :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Being that humanity is IMPERFECT and god (is said to be) PERFECT, we can't legitimately judge the two with the same measurement.
So let's judge god's 'track record':
:approve: or
:confused2: or
:down:
How would YOU judge god's work?
How should god's work be judged?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #91

Post by FaithWillDo »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:00 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:16 amIf we have a "free will", then we would have a "will" that is free to make choices without divine restraints or control.

Now read these verses which teach on this issue…
Assuming facts not in evidence (divine restraints or control), and no amount of reading is going to change that.
Dear Diagoras,
Don't you get your understanding from God's Word? Isn't God's Word enough "evidence" for you to believe Him?

The scriptures I presented clearly say that mankind's "will" is controlled by God. What is stopping you from believing it?

Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #92

Post by FaithWillDo »

cms wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm FaithWillDo, To get a better understanding, a few more questions have come to mind.
Are you saying that God wills people to do good and evil? If so,then why not just will people to do good? Or are you saying that God wills people to do things which are contrary to His will in order to get them to do the things which are actually not contrary to His will? It makes more sense to me to say that God gives us free will so that we might learn from our own mistakes.
Dear cms,

Mankind's evil state is not contrary to God's "will". Nothing in this creation is contrary to God's "will".

God wants His children (all mankind) to have a knowledge of "good and evil" so that we can be "like Him". To gain this knowledge, God decided for mankind to experience evil. That is why we are created spiritually marred and why we have a carnal mind which causes us to sin. Satan was even created to tempt and destroy mankind. Once evil has served its purpose though, evil will be taken away. God will then have new children who are like Him and who have a knowledge of good and evil.

As I have stated, the Doctrine of Free Will is a "works" based belief system which is not true and cannot save a person. We are saved by faith and not works. When we try to combine the two, we are trying to serve two masters.

Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #93

Post by FaithWillDo »

cms wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm FaithWillDo, To get a better understanding, a few more questions have come to mind.
Are you saying that God wills people to do good and evil? If so,then why not just will people to do good? Or are you saying that God wills people to do things which are contrary to His will in order to get them to do the things which are actually not contrary to His will? It makes more sense to me to say that God gives us free will so that we might learn from our own mistakes.
Dear cms,
I really want to help you understand. Have you read my "big picture" post #57 on this thread. If you haven't, it might help answer some of your questions.
Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #94

Post by Diagoras »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:41 pmDon't you get your understanding from God's Word? Isn't God's Word enough "evidence" for you to believe Him?
Glad we can clear this up very easily. No. God's Word (be that from the Bible, personal revelation or any other source) is definitely not enough "evidence" for me to believe Him. Quite the opposite, in fact. I do read the Bible, in order to learn more about how Christianity formed and developed out of a Jewish religion many years ago. I also enjoy reading about philosophy and general science, and base my personal philosophy (humanism/scientific naturalism) on the same scientific principles that have been responsible for much of mankind's remarkable progress.

The more I learn about the Bible, the social history of 'biblical lands' at the time of Jesus, and other contemporary sources such as The Gathas of Zarathushtra, deuterocanonical books, Pistis Sophia, etc, the more convinced I become that Christianity is of man, not of God.

The scriptures I presented clearly say that mankind's "will" is controlled by God. What is stopping you from believing it?
My firm belief that no god (or gods) exist. Odin, Yahweh, Durgah, Thoth, Acintya - take your pick: they're all manmade (in my opinion).

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #95

Post by FaithWillDo »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:06 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:41 pmDon't you get your understanding from God's Word? Isn't God's Word enough "evidence" for you to believe Him?
Glad we can clear this up very easily. No. God's Word (be that from the Bible, personal revelation or any other source) is definitely not enough "evidence" for me to believe Him. Quite the opposite, in fact. I do read the Bible, in order to learn more about how Christianity formed and developed out of a Jewish religion many years ago. I also enjoy reading about philosophy and general science, and base my personal philosophy (humanism/scientific naturalism) on the same scientific principles that have been responsible for much of mankind's remarkable progress.

The more I learn about the Bible, the social history of 'biblical lands' at the time of Jesus, and other contemporary sources such as The Gathas of Zarathushtra, deuterocanonical books, Pistis Sophia, etc, the more convinced I become that Christianity is of man, not of God.

The scriptures I presented clearly say that mankind's "will" is controlled by God. What is stopping you from believing it?
My firm belief that no god (or gods) exist. Odin, Yahweh, Durgah, Thoth, Acintya - take your pick: they're all manmade (in my opinion).
Dear Diagoras,
That completely explains it. If I had known you have not received the Early Rain of the Spirit, I would not have continued this discussion.
Joe

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #96

Post by Purple Knight »

cms wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pmPurple Knight, maybe the problem is in thinking that you have no free will to either sin or not to sin. In which case you would be stuck in your sin.
I just take sin out of it and examine my own behaviour when faced with 1. something I want more and 2. some drive I don't want to heed.

For example, I have tested myself with hunger. At the behest of someone who wanted to be anorexic and wasn't, I tested myself. I can say to myself, here, this $1000 is yours if you hold out for 10 days without eating. Otherwise it gets burned.

If I was just a greedy idiot I would simply hold out and get the $1000. $1000 is worth more than a taco. $1000 can buy many tacos. So if I go for the taco, the problem isn't me wanting the taco over the $1000, the problem is me being unable to choose otherwise. This is why I took sin out of it and did an experiment on whether I can really do whatever I want - whether I have free will - or whether, at some point, the body controls the mind.

cms

Re: God's 'track record'

Post #97

Post by cms »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm Dear cms,
I really want to help you understand. Have you read my "big picture" post #57 on this thread. If you haven't, it might help answer some of your questions.
FaithWillDo, I a read your post. There's definitely a lot to unpack there. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. :)

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:10 pm If I was just a greedy idiot I would simply hold out and get the $1000. $1000 is worth more than a taco. $1000 can buy many tacos. So if I go for the taco, the problem isn't me wanting the taco over the $1000, the problem is me being unable to choose otherwise. This is why I took sin out of it and did an experiment on whether I can really do whatever I want - whether I have free will - or whether, at some point, the body controls the mind.
Purple Knight, But you do have a choice in this scenario, taco or money. The world is filled with testimonies of what people can do when they have the will to do it.

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #98

Post by FaithWillDo »

cms wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:07 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm Dear cms,
I really want to help you understand. Have you read my "big picture" post #57 on this thread. If you haven't, it might help answer some of your questions.
FaithWillDo, I a read your post. There's definitely a lot to unpack there. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. :)

Dear cms,
Yes, there is a lot that is probably new or at least very different from what you believe. For you to accept it, it would be like a spiritual earthquake with thunder and lightning and trumpets blowing. That is what happens when Christ gives a believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Your world paradigm changes in an instant. It is quite an event.

If any of what I presented seems like it might be true to you, I strongly suggest you pray for Christ to open your eyes to it if it is His "will" to do so. He is the giver of good gifts to those who ask.

After Christ gave me the Latter Rain back in October 2005, my church world came crashing down and I never looked back (remember Lot's wife). It was just like what scripture teaches about that event. It was the greatest day of my life. Below is my testimony from that time:

Conversion Testimony of Joe & Julie Edwards
October 8th, 2005
Two years ago, my wife Julie and I had been without a church home for 4 years after having moved to Fayetteville, AR. We visited many churches during that time (some for 3 or 4 months) but we never could find any that seemed to have a real love for the Lord. After our own personal study of the scripture, we decided that we wanted to be baptized in the Name of Jesus instead of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as we had done many years ago. We could not find any churches that would baptize this way until we talked to a friend (Rusty Newman) who went to a Oneness Pentecostal church in Bentonville, AR. We decided to go and be baptized there even though we were from a Church of Christ/Baptist type background. We studied in the scripture about receiving the Holy Spirit and the gifts which the Spirit gives.

Four weeks later, my wife was filled with the Spirit at home and started speaking in tongues. It was a very powerful experience with her. She was constantly filled for about two weeks, speaking in tongues nearly every time she opened her mouth. She spent a great deal of time on her knees in tears speaking in tongues as she prayed. We didn't really know what to think of it. Like I said, we were from a church background that denies tongues. We were not children either, I was 43 and she was 37. We really were amazed with her experience. A few weeks went by and she would still go on her knees in prayer every day and the Spirit would speak through her in tongues until one day as she spoke, the words changed into English. We soon realized that she was prophesying in the Spirit. We had never even heard of this gift before and were greatly amazed by it. Over the next year & a half, she has received "words" (that is what we call them) from the Lord more than two dozen times. One of the words she received told us (me & her) that the Lord had great treasure for us if we would continue seeking him.

I will quote it to you:

"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

Julie received this "word" in July 2004. I know what you are thinking - I wouldn't have believed it is real either if someone were to tell me about it happening to someone else. I was not sure whether to believe it or not for a long time. But after a few months, I did come to believe it was really from the Lord because the things she prayed over and received "words" concerning, would come to pass just as she prophesied.

Then four weeks ago, my journey to the Lord took a sudden and giant step! I saw a picture on foxnews.com of a young Muslim boy (age 12) who had just lived through the recent Pakistan earthquake. For some reason, my heart for this boy was really going out to him. I have rarely ever felt this way before by a news story. That evening in prayer at home, the image of the boy came back to me and I grieved for him as I prayed. I was not grieving for him because of the earthquake but because I thought that he was going to be eternally lost and that he really doesn't have a realistic chance of being saved. I couldn't understand why I had been blessed with the opportunity to know the Lord and why he has virtually no opportunity since he lives in a Muslim country. I asked the Lord why this was the case. I was so confused and couldn't understand why he was most likely going to hell just because of where he had been born. Almost three days had passed since I had prayed that prayer and I had not given it much more thought. But on that third day (Friday, Oct. 7, 2005) I had some extra time at work so I decided to study "end-time" prophecy on the internet (my great passion). I went to Google and searched on a couple of words (I can't remember them now) and a list of websites came up. I looked through the list and noticed Ray Smith's website “bible-truths.com”. I thought it looked interesting so I clicked on it. By the next morning, I had read his Lake of Fire Series for a few hours and was now on part four. I couldn't believe what I was reading but I felt compelled to continue reading it anyway. Later that same morning (Saturday, Oct. 8, 2005), I took a break from my reading to pray about it. I prayed for the Lord to open my eyes if what Ray Smith had written was true and went back to reading. I was still on the fourth part when the Lord suddenly opened my eyes. I became overjoyed at the truth the Lord had just revealed to me! It was joy like I had never felt before in my life. It was at that point that I remembered my prayer from earlier in the week concerning the Muslim boy. Immediately, I knew that this new truth which the Lord had just shown me was the answer to that prayer. I was overjoyed again. I then decided to find Julie (she was in the kitchen) and share with her what the Lord had just revealed to me. I explained to her what I had been reading and pointed out the supporting scriptures. Within 30 minutes, she was filled with the Spirit and began praising the Lord because of the new knowledge of the truth that He had revealed to her, too.

The last 4 weeks Julie and I have studied scripture every day and have been trying to share the new truths with our friends at church. But cutting through the details, we ended up leaving the church for good a few days ago. No one there could receive the truth that the Lord had revealed to us. In just four short weeks, we had learned so much from our studies that nearly everything we knew before as “truth”, we now knew to be lies. I could hardly believe how spiritually blind we were just a few short weeks before. Now from scripture, we have come to understand what had just happened in both our lives - the Lord had appeared unto us a second time, baptized us with His Spirit (Latter Rain) and healed our spiritual blindness. We found the "treasure" mentioned in Julie’s prophesy from about a year & a half ago. We didn't even remember her receiving that "word" until I stumbled across it a few days ago from an old email I had sent to a family member. When I reminded her of it and read it to her, she was filled with tears of joy again.

The next day, Julie received another "word" from the Lord. It said:

"I will answer. I have shown you the truth in My Word. It is only revealed to those who seek it. It is by faith. It is for those who seek to know Me. I will bring all before My judgment, which is righteous and true. I will complete all things as I have committed to do by My Word. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by man, even if I reveal it. It will be as I have spoken it. Some will hear and not believe. Some will hear and search but will desire the favor of men more than Me. Some will hear and seek understanding, and by faith I will show them. These will be few. These few will rejoice as one who has found great treasure! Keep seeking, remain faithful and I will give abundant blessings. You ask of Yahweh. I Am that I Am, come to men to show them the Light. Of the One, from and in the One when all things are completed as it was established before time. All will be brought to life in the One. It will not then be needful to show man God or give man His Spirit. Man cannot receive more because he cannot understand".

Several weeks after receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Julie ceased receiving “words” from the Lord. She has not received any since that time. I believe it is because of what this verse teaches:

1Cor 13:8-10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

May the Lord bless and keep you,
Joe
Last edited by FaithWillDo on Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #99

Post by JoeyKnothead »

FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:26 pm Yes, you do seem confused. I'll try and make it more clear for you. God does not operate in this world by forcing our "will" to conform to His "will". But He does cause our "will" to match to His "will".
...
The internet itself'll die of old age before you put you any truth to this here.

The data'll only ever show the theist tries to conform "God's will" to that of the theist.

What's so problematic about your notion here is the arrogance of thinking a god you can't show exist has him an opinion ya can't show he does - but he agrees with you, cause you have divine, godly inspired thinking on it .

How proud must one be to claim they speak for a god they can't show exists to've ever had the first thought?

I get sent to the rubber room when I get tothinking too proud.

These guys get promoted to Pope.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: God's 'track record'

Post #100

Post by FaithWillDo »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:51 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:26 pm Yes, you do seem confused. I'll try and make it more clear for you. God does not operate in this world by forcing our "will" to conform to His "will". But He does cause our "will" to match to His "will".
...
The internet itself'll die of old age before you put you any truth to this here.

The data'll only ever show the theist tries to conform "God's will" to that of the theist.

What's so problematic about your notion here is the arrogance of thinking a god you can't show exist has him an opinion ya can't show he does - but he agrees with you, cause you have divine, godly inspired thinking on it .

How proud must one be to claim they speak for a god they can't show exists to've ever had the first thought?

I get sent to the rubber room when I get tothinking too proud.

These guys get promoted to Pope.
Dear Joeyknothead,
God will show Himself to you someday, probably not until after you physically die and are resurrected though. But for now, it is apparent that He has decided to remain hidden from you (like He does with most of mankind). He does this for reasons of His own and He certainly doesn't need to explain Himself to you or anyone else. He is God and He will do as He pleases.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

But I can assure you, He loves you every bit as much as He loves anyone else. And He has a plan to convert all mankind into His children by the end of the final age.

For now though, you really shouldn't be judging God or the ones to whom He has made Himself known. You are like a blind man who is judging a sighted person for trying to explain about the wonderful colors of a rainbow. Until the blind man's vision is healed, he will never have any appreciation for what the sighted person sees.

Joe

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