God's 'track record'

[nobspeople]

In another thread, a poster said the following:

Does that good track record, overall include eliminating war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering?

It made me wonder, how would god's track record rate?

Let's look at biblically supplied highlights (not in chronical order necessarily):
God created everything
Then it made man
Then mad was tempted by satan
This would mean god made satan and allowed satan to tempt man, knowing (if god's all knowing) that man would sin
Then god got mad and pouted like a spoiled child (editorializing a bit there but you get the jest) and made man to suffer through sin and ultimately die
God asks a guy to sacrifice his son, which he tries but then god sends an angel to stop it
God gets upset with a city and obliterates it from the planet
God gets upset with humanity and drowns all terrestrial life (including babies, women in the middle of child birth, animals (which have NOTHING to do with man's sin) and plants)
God THEN offers a sacrifice to sin as himself/son/self/son/self (the debate still lingers as to the specifics of this person)
This person lives a life to his early 30s
God allows a guy to betray himself/son/self/etc and allows history to see this guy as a traitor when, in all actuality, SOME guy had to do this in order to complete god's 'plan'
Then this god/man/god/man dies and raises from the dead
God allows mankind's history to be told in 'the bible', even though there are Es and Os which cause confusion for the remainder of humanity

Being that humanity is IMPERFECT and god (is said to be) PERFECT, we can't legitimately judge the two with the same measurement.
So let's judge god's 'track record':
or
or

How would YOU judge god's work?
How should god's work be judged?

[brunumb]

Faith is a gift from Christ when He comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Unless this event happens to a person, they are not going to have any faith in Christ.

It appears that my gift got lost in the mail. Not my fault. God has a pretty poor track record for getting things right when it comes to his dealings with humanity.

As for all the Bible quotes, the opinions of ancient anonymous people from times of ignorance and superstition are not compelling in the least. Thousands of Christian sects testify to the ability of humans to extract whatever suits their agenda from the texts. Every so often someone suffering from a dose of Dunning-Kruger comes up with yet another version of the 'truth' which they back up with their spin on what the Bible allegedly teaches. There will always be needy people who swallow the spin and develop a deep conviction that they have the only path to salvation and life everlasting. As old as it is, that carrot has never lost its flavour.

[FaithWillDo]

Faith is a gift from Christ when He comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Unless this event happens to a person, they are not going to have any faith in Christ.

It appears that my gift got lost in the mail. Not my fault. God has a pretty poor track record for getting things right when it comes to his dealings with humanity.

As for all the Bible quotes, the opinions of ancient anonymous people from times of ignorance and superstition are not compelling in the least. Thousands of Christian sects testify to the ability of humans to extract whatever suits their agenda from the texts. Every so often someone suffering from a dose of Dunning-Kruger comes up with yet another version of the 'truth' which they back up with their spin on what the Bible allegedly teaches. There will always be needy people who swallow the spin and develop a deep conviction that they have the only path to salvation and life everlasting. As old as it is, that carrot has never lost its flavour.

Dear brunumb,
Faith is only given by Christ and He gives it to each person at a time He decides to give it. Your faith is not "lost in the mail", it simply has not been given to you yet. Without that gift of faith, you are not going to be able to believe in Christ. And until Christ heals your spiritual blindness, you are not going to be able to understand how incredible and marvelous God and His Word are. But your day (the Day of the Lord) will come, either in this present age or in the age to come:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Of course, without faith, you are not going to believe this verse but maybe after Christ gives you a measure of faith someday, you will recall this verse and believe it then. Christ is the Savior of the world. Eternal Hell is a lie from Satan.

Have you ever seen the movie: The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel? There is a line from the movie that says (and I'm paraphrasing) "if everything is not okay, it is not the end, because when it is the end, everything will be okay". In the end, everything is going to be okay for mankind - Jesus Christ will see to it. We just need to have patience and wait on Him to complete His work within each and every person.

Joe

[Diagoras]

In the end, everything is going to be okay for mankind - Jesus Christ will see to it. We just need to have patience and wait on Him to complete His work within each and every person.

This reminds me of that old joke about the shipwrecked man on a desert island who prays to God to save him - you know the one, the punchline goes "But I sent you a yacht, a helicopter, a cruise liner..."

People are responsible for their own lives and - by cooperation with others - the conditions of society. An important aim of any humanist is to improve their own well-being and that of others during their lives. The risk of believing that a deity or other supernatural entity will take on that effort for us is to not act when it would be in our best interests to do so.

[FaithWillDo]

In the end, everything is going to be okay for mankind - Jesus Christ will see to it. We just need to have patience and wait on Him to complete His work within each and every person.

This reminds me of that old joke about the shipwrecked man on a desert island who prays to God to save him - you know the one, the punchline goes "But I sent you a yacht, a helicopter, a cruise liner..."

People are responsible for their own lives and - by cooperation with others - the conditions of society. An important aim of any humanist is to improve their own well-being and that of others during their lives. The risk of believing that a deity or other supernatural entity will take on that effort for us is to not act when it would be in our best interests to do so.

Dear Diagoras,
Your understanding of how God works in this world is not correct. God is spirit and His spiritual work occurs "within" mankind. God is the cause of mankind's words and deeds. The issue for mankind is that we are spiritually blind and cannot know the workings of God within our hearts and minds:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

God clearly says that He accomplishes His "will" by working within mankind's heart.

Look at this verse:

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

God works within mankind's hearts to accomplish His "will". Do you believe that any war in history was started because of a king made a free will choice to do so? Or do you believe that God caused all the wars in history to happen to suit His own purposes? Before you answer, read these verses below:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Jer 4:6 Set up a banner toward Zion; take to flight, stay not! For I am bringing evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Look at these two verses also:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

When God wanted David to "number Israel and Judah", He sent Satan to provoked David to do so. Satan didn't work from the outside of David to accomplish this goal, Satan worked from "within" (spiritually) David to accomplish it. God accomplishes His "will" in this world by working "within" mankind. Even Satan does not have a "free will" and He always does what God causes him to do. Mankind is no different.

Here are a few more to consider:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Mankind DOES NOT live, breath, talk, work or die independently from God.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

God is in complete control of this world and nothing happens in it without Him causing it to happen.

In the "joke" (that I have heard many times) you mentioned, the shipwrecked man made the decision God wanted Him to make. To believe that mankind has a "free will" is completely contradicted by scripture. God the Father is the only one who has a "free will". His "will" is supreme and He controls all things in His creation. To believe that mankind has a "free will" to operate outside of God's "will" elevates mankind to being equal with God. Even Christ said many times that His Father is greater than Himself and that His words and deeds are the Father's words and deeds. Christ does not have a free will either.

Paul said this:
2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The "man of sin" is a Called out believer who has been deceived by Satan and who has spiritually devolved. We all experience this "falling away" portion of the pathway to salvation. We all sit in the temple of God, claiming to be God by saying that we can do and say things that are contrary to God's "will". This is the core teaching of the Doctrine of Free Will that is so commonly taught in the churches of this world. It is a "works" based belief system that is rejected by Christ. Mankind has a "will" but it is not free, it is subservient to God's "will". Also, God never just "allows" things to happen in this world. He is the cause of all things which happen, even the evil of this world.

Joe

[Diagoras]

…He is the cause of all things which happen, even the evil of this world.

Without free will there is no moral responsibility. If somebody now steals from you or harms you, are you going to accept that they are no less ‘good’ than you are? After all, they are being ‘compelled’ to act by the will of a god.

[FaithWillDo]

…He is the cause of all things which happen, even the evil of this world.

Without free will there is no moral responsibility. If somebody now steals from you or harms you, are you going to accept that they are no less ‘good’ than you are? After all, they are being ‘compelled’ to act by the will of a god.

Dear Diagoras,
Scripture clearly says that mankind has no free will. Don't use human reasoning to discard the truth that scripture presents to us.

All mankind is created carnally minded and as a result, we all frequently sin. Scripture even says that God has given mankind an experience of evil. The "evil" which God gives us is both on the giving end and the receiving end. Scripture also says that some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor. Are the honorable vessels better than the dishonorable vessels OR are they just blessed by God? If someone sins against me, it is usually easy to forgive them, knowing this truth that "all things work together for good".

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Do you believe this verse? It takes a great deal of faith to trust God so completely, especially when He brings evil our way.

As for your statement "without free will there is no moral responsibility". That belief is not supported by scripture. God holds us accountable (not responsible) for our sins because we believe that we do them willingly. Christ said this to the Pharisees:

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The Pharisees' believed that they could "see" the truth and when in fact, they could not. Because they believed they could see (understand), their "sin remaineth". Likewise, because mankind believes they have a free will which allows them to decide for themselves to commit sins or not, their sin also remains. But someday, at the time of God's choosing, mankind will learn to trust God for all things, even their own decisions and actions. To trust God that much, we must have faith. Faith is the key to our salvation. A belief that we are the cause of our own "works" (even our confession of faith), is "of this world" and is rejected by Christ. In fact, a belief in "works" is the sin that leads to death. Once this sin is committed, we cannot be renewed by repentance. Our only hope is for Christ to come a second time (the Latter Rain) to us.

If there is something in your life that God has made you aware of, that you believe is wrong, then pray to God to take it away. In other words, pray for him to change you within so that you will no longer do the wrong thing. We must learn to trust God for all things and when we do, we learn that God is the giver of good gifts to those who ask. The best and most needed gifts are spiritual gifts.

Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is a good example. His "thorn" was his frequent beatings/whippings/stonings. Paul prayed to Christ to take away the thorn because He knew Christ was the cause of it. But Christ would not and said that His grace was sufficient. Paul accepted this answer and believed that the thorn in his flesh was necessary and was ultimately for his benefit. This is the type of faith that Christ will develop in all His children someday.

Joe

[Diagoras]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

God holds us accountable (not responsible) for our sins because we believe that we do them willingly.

We choose to do them, do you mean? That's at odds with your previous claim that "mankind has no free will".

[Purple Knight]

Without free will there is no moral responsibility.

The stronger case is that every individual human "can" choose not to sin, it's just, nobody does. It's still difficult to believe. We default to can't everywhere else, and if I told you that a man could lift a full-grown elephant over his head, you would say, show me. And if I told you everybody could do it, you're just not trying hard enough, you'd rightly roll your eyes.

I'll believe I had the choice not to sin when you show me somebody with the same capabilities as myself who has made that choice to never sin.

I don't believe I sin willingly. Not for a second. I believe that my back is limited and breaks if enough weight is put on it.

[cms]

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

FaithWillDo, If God moved David against Israel, then why is Satan necessary?

You also said that if someone does you wrong, then it's easy to forgive them. Why would you need to forgive them if it was God who caused them to do it. It might be better to take up the matter with God.

But someday, at the time of God's choosing, mankind will learn to trust God for all things, even their own decisions and actions.

If God is doing all the willing, then there would be no "their own decisions." In fact, there wouldn't even be a you, or I, a he, him, she, etc.etc.

Isaiah 65:12 "Because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and CHOSE that which I did not delight."
There are many verses in the Bible like the example above which show that we are capable of doing something other than what God tells us.

[brunumb]

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #76]

Reading all that you have said FaithWillDo, it seems to me that God works in ridiculous ways. It's no wonder that faith is required.