"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

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Tcg
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"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:
Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals
Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #81

Post by Athetotheist »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:14 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:23 am [Replying to Bust Nak in post #76
"You are <insert insult> and incorrect" is just a proposition, not an argument. It needs to take the form of an argument first before it can be a fallacious argument.
What makes it fallacious is that the insult is used instead of an argument.
a) Still not a logical fallacy, let alone an ad hominem fallacy in particular.
b) There is no "instead of" because it was not presented as an argument against theistic belief in the first place. Why were you even expecting an argument at all, from an off hand statement about the difference between how theists and atheists are perceived as threats?
"There is no "instead of" because it was not presented as an argument against theistic belief"

No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #82

Post by Bust Nak »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
If you accept that it's not meant as an argument, why are you still reading it as if it is an attempt to convince people that theistic beliefs are false?

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #83

Post by Athetotheist »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
If you accept that it's not meant as an argument, why are you still reading it as if it is an attempt to convince people that theistic beliefs are false?
I guess I don't have to if you're admitting that it isn't an argument.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #84

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm ...
No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
Considering how so many theists'll support notions of nonbelievers being fools, and mentions of lakes of Hell and fire, and all such as that, the topic of poisoning wells is kinda goofy.

If the believer gets to hide behind their "sacred beliefs" to promote notions that atheists're all of em every kind of this and that, none of which is any good, I think it's perfectly fair for nonbelievers to point at em and say, "Bless your heart".

"You ought'n say mean stuff about theists" is about as goofy an argument as their unproven, unprovable beliefs / claims. As goofy as the insults and slanders, and threats against those who differ.

Don't want your well poisoned? Quit drawing from a well that says your God's just happy as a peach to call folks "fools".
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #85

Post by Bust Nak »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:18 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:11 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
If you accept that it's not meant as an argument, why are you still reading it as if it is an attempt to convince people that theistic beliefs are false?
I guess I don't have to if you're admitting that it isn't an argument.
It's not a matter of "you don't have to," it's "you shouldn't have in the first place."

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #86

Post by Athetotheist »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:45 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm ...
No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
Considering how so many theists'll support notions of nonbelievers being fools, and mentions of lakes of Hell and fire, and all such as that, the topic of poisoning wells is kinda goofy.

If the believer gets to hide behind their "sacred beliefs" to promote notions that atheists're all of em every kind of this and that, none of which is any good, I think it's perfectly fair for nonbelievers to point at em and say, "Bless your heart".

"You ought'n say mean stuff about theists" is about as goofy an argument as their unproven, unprovable beliefs / claims. As goofy as the insults and slanders, and threats against those who differ.

Don't want your well poisoned? Quit drawing from a well that says your God's just happy as a peach to call folks "fools".
You evidently have no idea of what my concept of God is, Joey, so stop lumping me in with the crusader crowd.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #87

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:44 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:45 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm ...
No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
Considering how so many theists'll support notions of nonbelievers being fools, and mentions of lakes of Hell and fire, and all such as that, the topic of poisoning wells is kinda goofy.

If the believer gets to hide behind their "sacred beliefs" to promote notions that atheists're all of em every kind of this and that, none of which is any good, I think it's perfectly fair for nonbelievers to point at em and say, "Bless your heart".

"You ought'n say mean stuff about theists" is about as goofy an argument as their unproven, unprovable beliefs / claims. As goofy as the insults and slanders, and threats against those who differ.

Don't want your well poisoned? Quit drawing from a well that says your God's just happy as a peach to call folks "fools".
You evidently have no idea of what my concept of God is, Joey, so stop lumping me in with the crusader crowd.
Bull biscuits.

We should never, ever, afford the Christian
commodity when they wanna, in their sacred texts, accuse us of all kinda this and that.

As the Christian refers to their sacred texts to call us this, we have us the right to call em that.

"Hell! Lake of fire! Fool! Can't do em no good!"

These're the insults, the slanders, the stupidities our accusers present, in each and every time they promote biblical "god said it, you stupid son of a plow!"
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #88

Post by Athetotheist »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:47 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:44 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:45 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm ...
No, it wasn't an argument against theistic belief.......it was poisoning the well against theistic belief.
Considering how so many theists'll support notions of nonbelievers being fools, and mentions of lakes of Hell and fire, and all such as that, the topic of poisoning wells is kinda goofy.

If the believer gets to hide behind their "sacred beliefs" to promote notions that atheists're all of em every kind of this and that, none of which is any good, I think it's perfectly fair for nonbelievers to point at em and say, "Bless your heart".

"You ought'n say mean stuff about theists" is about as goofy an argument as their unproven, unprovable beliefs / claims. As goofy as the insults and slanders, and threats against those who differ.

Don't want your well poisoned? Quit drawing from a well that says your God's just happy as a peach to call folks "fools".
You evidently have no idea of what my concept of God is, Joey, so stop lumping me in with the crusader crowd.
Bull biscuits.

We should never, ever, afford the Christian
commodity when they wanna, in their sacred texts, accuse us of all kinda this and that.

As the Christian refers to their sacred texts to call us this, we have us the right to call em that.

"Hell! Lake of fire! Fool! Can't do em no good!"

These're the insults, the slanders, the stupidities our accusers present, in each and every time they promote biblical "god said it, you stupid son of a plow!"
Asking probing questions and refuting arguments is more effective than trading tit-for-tat insults.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #89

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:43 pm Asking probing questions and refuting arguments is more effective than trading tit-for-tat insults.
Fer sher. It's obvious just going around insulting folks is less than polite, however...

I'm pointing to the fact that these insults are in the Christian's sacred texts.

These ain't some offhand remarks, they're sacred, God breathed slanders that inform Christian actions or nonactions.

So any Christian who feels slighted when someone comes along and serves insults back, well that's a bit hypocritical.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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