"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

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Tcg
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"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:
Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals
Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #61

Post by Wootah »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:41 am For example crime, rape and suicide are all lower over the past decade or more, can we conclude none of that is due to a rise in atheism's popularity?
What if the reason they were down was because of atheism increasing apathy (just say). Would that be good?

What if education is such a straight jacket now that to say you believe in God then gets you ridiculed by the teacher and class and hampers career progression in jobs?

Does anyone really believe it is just the clear light of rationality pushing back the darkness of God?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #62

Post by Athetotheist »

Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:04 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:52 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #25
The data presented in this article reveal that theology is not innate. When education doesn't include teaching about god/gods less people believe in god/gods. If it were innate, as you claim, education or lack thereof wouldn't change the rate of theism in the population. The reality is that it does.
The data in the article may suggest that theology isn't innate, but there's usually more than one side to a story.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772
The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda.......But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs."

This runs counter to the assertion that less religious education = less religious belief.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #63

Post by Athetotheist »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:59 am
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:14 am
Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:23 am
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:26 pm directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.
Worth noting that comments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining is not a fallacy unless one draws the conclusion "they are unwilling to face reality of death, therefore they are incorrect."
That conclusion is the insinuation made in the fallacy.
That's the point, I didn't see where anyone concluded that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death. Did you?
Yes.
Tcg wrote:Some theists classify atheist's lack of belief as some sort of great evil while many atheists realize that theist's beliefs are based on wishful thinking. Nothing more than a desire to avoid the existential realities of life and of course death.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #64

Post by Athetotheist »

Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:24 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:26 pm
You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.
Who exactly are the "You guys" you are referring to here?
Guys who use ad hominem arguments against theists.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #65

Post by Tcg »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:24 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:26 pm
You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.
Who exactly are the "You guys" you are referring to here?
Guys who use ad hominem arguments against theists.
As has been shown, that would not include me.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #66

Post by Tcg »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:38 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:04 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:52 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #25
The data presented in this article reveal that theology is not innate. When education doesn't include teaching about god/gods less people believe in god/gods. If it were innate, as you claim, education or lack thereof wouldn't change the rate of theism in the population. The reality is that it does.
The data in the article may suggest that theology isn't innate, but there's usually more than one side to a story.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772
The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda.......But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs."

This runs counter to the assertion that less religious education = less religious belief.
Where did these "citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times" acquire their religious beliefs from?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #67

Post by Bust Nak »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:57 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:59 am That's the point, I didn't see where anyone concluded that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death. Did you?
Yes.
Tcg wrote:Some theists classify atheist's lack of belief as some sort of great evil while many atheists realize that theist's beliefs are based on wishful thinking. Nothing more than a desire to avoid the existential realities of life and of course death.
Perhaps you can explain in detail why you think the quote is an example of someone concluding that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #68

Post by Athetotheist »

Bust Nak wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:52 am
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:57 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:59 am That's the point, I didn't see where anyone concluded that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death. Did you?
Yes.
Tcg wrote:Some theists classify atheist's lack of belief as some sort of great evil while many atheists realize that theist's beliefs are based on wishful thinking. Nothing more than a desire to avoid the existential realities of life and of course death.
Perhaps you can explain in detail why you think the quote is an example of someone concluding that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death.
Saying that beliefs are based on "nothing more than a desire" is saying that they are not based on any external reality.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #69

Post by Athetotheist »

Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:24 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:38 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:04 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:52 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #25
The data presented in this article reveal that theology is not innate. When education doesn't include teaching about god/gods less people believe in god/gods. If it were innate, as you claim, education or lack thereof wouldn't change the rate of theism in the population. The reality is that it does.
The data in the article may suggest that theology isn't innate, but there's usually more than one side to a story.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772
The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda.......But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs."

This runs counter to the assertion that less religious education = less religious belief.
Where did these "citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times" acquire their religious beliefs from?
Presumably from their families, who had themselves rejected the state's "re-education".

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #70

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:38 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:04 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:52 pm [Replying to Tcg in post #25
The data presented in this article reveal that theology is not innate. When education doesn't include teaching about god/gods less people believe in god/gods. If it were innate, as you claim, education or lack thereof wouldn't change the rate of theism in the population. The reality is that it does.
The data in the article may suggest that theology isn't innate, but there's usually more than one side to a story.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772
The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda.......But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs."

This runs counter to the assertion that less religious education = less religious belief.
Communist regimes are often used to bash atheism, because they were atheistic. But the problem was with them as with Dictatorships that were theistic was Dogma and authority. Science and reason was expected to dance to the tune of the Dogma and that is why where were so many problems. Atheism today knows that reason and knowledge can't be imposed from the top by authority but has to be passed around by debate and information. It is reason and rationalism that embraces the free Internt. It is authoritative Dogma whether religious or political that wants to control and censor it.

In this respect I'd point out that the only atheist TV channel that I know of is a phpone in where theists can discuss. Theist channels so far as I have seen do not do phone ins for atheists to discuss; they exist to put out One Dogmatic view.

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