Would an angel do that?

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Athetotheist
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Would an angel do that?

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

"The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in them, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no more delay." (Rev. 10:5-6)

"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus." (Rev. 19:10)

The author of the book of Revelation, who identifies himself as John, tells of numerous angelic encounters. What difficulty arises from the two mentioned above? The issue is this:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:09 pm "The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in them, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no more delay." (Rev. 10:5-6)

"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus." (Rev. 19:10)

The author of the book of Revelation, who identifies himself as John, tells of numerous angelic encounters. What difficulty arises from the two mentioned above? The issue is this:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?
Probably depends what an angel is. If it's an imperfect messenger, sure.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #3

Post by Athetotheist »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:32 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:09 pm "The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in them, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no more delay." (Rev. 10:5-6)

"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus." (Rev. 19:10)

The author of the book of Revelation, who identifies himself as John, tells of numerous angelic encounters. What difficulty arises from the two mentioned above? The issue is this:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?
Probably depends what an angel is. If it's an imperfect messenger, sure.
A messenger imperfect enough to get that important a detail wrong shouldn't be delivering the message.

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #4

Post by nobspeople »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:49 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:32 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:09 pm "The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in them, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no more delay." (Rev. 10:5-6)

"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus." (Rev. 19:10)

The author of the book of Revelation, who identifies himself as John, tells of numerous angelic encounters. What difficulty arises from the two mentioned above? The issue is this:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?
Probably depends what an angel is. If it's an imperfect messenger, sure.
A messenger imperfect enough to get that important a detail wrong shouldn't be delivering the message.
Perhaps, but why would this messenger need to be important enough (or not) to deliver such a message? If it's that important, god should deliver it itself, yeah? Or it needs a new recruiter to get better, more reliable angels...
But there are imperfect angels (satan) OR they are acting on behalf of god's plan.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #5

Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:09 pm "The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by...
....
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?
What Jesus said was for humans. Maybe it is different for angels, they may be able to know surely.

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #6

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #4
Perhaps, but why would this messenger need to be important enough (or not) to deliver such a message? If it's that important, god should deliver it itself, yeah? Or it needs a new recruiter to get better, more reliable angels...
But there are imperfect angels (satan) OR they are acting on behalf of god's plan.
Well......the point I was trying to get at is the discrepancy between the action of this angel and the prohibition against it, as if the author of Revelation wasn't aware of that prohibition.

The question of why Satan----if such a being exists----would have to play out the part prescribed for him to the point of his own destruction.....that's a whole different area to explore.

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #7

Post by Athetotheist »

1213 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:09 pm "The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted up his hand to heaven and swore by...
....
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:33-37)

Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?
What Jesus said was for humans. Maybe it is different for angels, they may be able to know surely.
If anything more than Yes and No were from an "evil one" when humans said it, would an angel say it to a human? Let's remember the inconsistency between what Jesus says about swearing oaths in Matthew 5.....

"you have heard that it was said to the people long ago"

and what Moses says about it in Numbers 30:....

"This is the thing which the Lord has commanded"

If the practice was divinely sanctioned, how could it be from an "evil one"? (I realize that I've ended up asking essentially the opposite of the question I started with in the OP, but I think that shows how incompatible the whole thing becomes when a theological system tries to factor in an "evil one".)
Last edited by Athetotheist on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #8

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

You're surprised to find inconsistencies in the Bible? What did you expect to find?


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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #9

Post by Athetotheist »

Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm [Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

You're surprised to find inconsistencies in the Bible? What did you expect to find?
Did I say I was surprised?

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Re: Would an angel do that?

Post #10

Post by Tcg »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:54 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm [Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

You're surprised to find inconsistencies in the Bible? What did you expect to find?
Did I say I was surprised?
No, but you did say this:
"Would an angel, being one of John's fellows in the service of Jesus, do something prohibited by Jesus?"
How would you classify this statement?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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