To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

To be clear the title of this thread is false.

There are currently several purported definitions of atheism, personally I always use the real one, the established one, the one used historically in books on theology, philosophy and so on, the one that's been around for hundreds of years.

But there are some who like to use a different definition one made up one afternoon by Antony Flew in the 1970s in a rather obscure book The Presumption of Atheism.

Nobody paid much attention to this until relatively recently where it became fashionable amongst militant atheists, some of whom even insist that Flew's definition is the true definition.

You can read more about this hand waving and other foot stamping here.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of atheists who rely on the historic definition and do not agree with this attempt to redefine it, so any pretense that all atheists adopt the "lack of belief" view is false, many atheists do not share that definition at all.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #2

Post by alexxcJRO »

dublicate....
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #3

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:00 am To be clear the title of this thread is false.

There are currently several purported definitions of atheism, personally I always use the real one, the established one, the one used historically in books on theology, philosophy and so on, the one that's been around for hundreds of years.

But there are some who like to use a different definition one made up one afternoon by Antony Flew in the 1970s in a rather obscure book The Presumption of Atheism.

Nobody paid much attention to this until relatively recently where it became fashionable amongst militant atheists, some of whom even insist that Flew's definition is the true definition.

You can read more about this hand waving and other foot stamping here.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of atheists who rely on the historic definition and do not agree with this attempt to redefine it, so any pretense that all atheists adopt the "lack of belief" view is false, many atheists do not share that definition at all.
“a lack of belief in god” is a perfect definition for most atheists.

I lack a belief in God(as a general concept).
I lack a belief in string theory, in “A non-material, sentient, will of unimaginable capability, not subject to law but a creator of law”, in strogois, in ghosts, in aliens, in YETI, in LOCK NEST MONSTER.
Which translates in I am unconvinced because of lack of compelling evidence.
Until such evidence is presented I will remain unconvinced, I will lack a belief.

Also I have a disbelief in Yahweh(poor imaginative attempts of ignorant ancient goat herders) and omnibenevolent, personal “shy” gods that does not distinguishes from an immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn. Also claim such beings do not exist.
There is a significant difference between my “lack of belief”(=weak atheist) and my “disbelief+claim:such beings do not exist”(=strong atheism). 8-)
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #4

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:26 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:00 am To be clear the title of this thread is false.

There are currently several purported definitions of atheism, personally I always use the real one, the established one, the one used historically in books on theology, philosophy and so on, the one that's been around for hundreds of years.

But there are some who like to use a different definition one made up one afternoon by Antony Flew in the 1970s in a rather obscure book The Presumption of Atheism.

Nobody paid much attention to this until relatively recently where it became fashionable amongst militant atheists, some of whom even insist that Flew's definition is the true definition.

You can read more about this hand waving and other foot stamping here.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of atheists who rely on the historic definition and do not agree with this attempt to redefine it, so any pretense that all atheists adopt the "lack of belief" view is false, many atheists do not share that definition at all.
“a lack of belief in god” is a perfect definition for most atheists.

I lack a belief in God(as a general concept).
I lack a belief in string theory, in “A non-material, sentient, will of unimaginable capability, not subject to law but a creator of law”, in strogois, in ghosts, in aliens, in YETI, in LOCK NEST MONSTER.
Which translates in I am unconvinced because of lack of compelling evidence.
Until such evidence is presented I will remain unconvinced, I will lack a belief.

Also I have a disbelief in Yahweh(poor imaginative attempts of ignorant ancient goat herders) and omnibenevolent, personal “shy” gods.
There is a significant difference between my “lack of belief”(=weak atheist) and my “disbelief”(strong atheism). 8-)
You can use whatever "definition" you like, the fact remains the term has an established definition and what you choose to call "strong atheism" is in fact simply "atheism".
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #5

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:32 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:26 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:00 am To be clear the title of this thread is false.

There are currently several purported definitions of atheism, personally I always use the real one, the established one, the one used historically in books on theology, philosophy and so on, the one that's been around for hundreds of years.

But there are some who like to use a different definition one made up one afternoon by Antony Flew in the 1970s in a rather obscure book The Presumption of Atheism.

Nobody paid much attention to this until relatively recently where it became fashionable amongst militant atheists, some of whom even insist that Flew's definition is the true definition.

You can read more about this hand waving and other foot stamping here.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of atheists who rely on the historic definition and do not agree with this attempt to redefine it, so any pretense that all atheists adopt the "lack of belief" view is false, many atheists do not share that definition at all.
“a lack of belief in god” is a perfect definition for most atheists.

I lack a belief in God(as a general concept).
I lack a belief in string theory, in “A non-material, sentient, will of unimaginable capability, not subject to law but a creator of law”, in strogois, in ghosts, in aliens, in YETI, in LOCK NEST MONSTER.
Which translates in I am unconvinced because of lack of compelling evidence.
Until such evidence is presented I will remain unconvinced, I will lack a belief.

Also I have a disbelief in Yahweh(poor imaginative attempts of ignorant ancient goat herders) and omnibenevolent, personal “shy” gods.
There is a significant difference between my “lack of belief”(=weak atheist) and my “disbelief”(strong atheism). 8-)
You can use whatever "definition" you like, the fact remains the term has an established definition and what you choose to call "strong atheism" is in fact simply "atheism".
Off course it has:
atheism
/ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism ... nt=gws-wiz


"Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #6

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:39 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:32 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:26 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:00 am To be clear the title of this thread is false.

There are currently several purported definitions of atheism, personally I always use the real one, the established one, the one used historically in books on theology, philosophy and so on, the one that's been around for hundreds of years.

But there are some who like to use a different definition one made up one afternoon by Antony Flew in the 1970s in a rather obscure book The Presumption of Atheism.

Nobody paid much attention to this until relatively recently where it became fashionable amongst militant atheists, some of whom even insist that Flew's definition is the true definition.

You can read more about this hand waving and other foot stamping here.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of atheists who rely on the historic definition and do not agree with this attempt to redefine it, so any pretense that all atheists adopt the "lack of belief" view is false, many atheists do not share that definition at all.
“a lack of belief in god” is a perfect definition for most atheists.

I lack a belief in God(as a general concept).
I lack a belief in string theory, in “A non-material, sentient, will of unimaginable capability, not subject to law but a creator of law”, in strogois, in ghosts, in aliens, in YETI, in LOCK NEST MONSTER.
Which translates in I am unconvinced because of lack of compelling evidence.
Until such evidence is presented I will remain unconvinced, I will lack a belief.

Also I have a disbelief in Yahweh(poor imaginative attempts of ignorant ancient goat herders) and omnibenevolent, personal “shy” gods.
There is a significant difference between my “lack of belief”(=weak atheist) and my “disbelief”(strong atheism). 8-)
You can use whatever "definition" you like, the fact remains the term has an established definition and what you choose to call "strong atheism" is in fact simply "atheism".
Off course it has:
atheism
/ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atheism ... nt=gws-wiz


"Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
How many definitions do you think there are for "atheism"?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #7

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1]

Can I ask what the point of this thread is?

What should really matter is the position of any given person. Who cares what labels YOU place on them without asking them? You can call me a unicorn believer for all I care, but since it's not true you would be pointlessly labelling people.

Some Christians really seem to have something stuck in their craw over what atheism really means. Somehow it must dismantle one of their beliefs or something, though I can't imagine why.

Sherlock Holmes, what are you trying to accomplish here?

It would be like me starting a thread "To be clear: Christianity is not really a belief in the God of the Bible, it's really a lack of belief in observable facts". In other words, it would be a pointless attempt to pigeon hole all Christians without bothering to ask them what they actually believe or disbelieve.

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #8

Post by alexxcJRO »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:15 pm
How many definitions do you think there are for "atheism"?
Some definitions are not congruent with reality and some are more congruent with reality.

The two I posted were the first I found after a 5 second search on google. Typed “atheism definition”.

Here are more:
atheism
noun
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athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
Definition of atheism
1a: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
b: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
2archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

atheism
noun

/ˈeɪθiɪzəm/

/ˈeɪθiɪzəm/
[uncountable]
1. lack of belief in the existence of God or godsOPPOSITE theism
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... ?q=atheism


atheism
[ ey-thee-iz-uhm ]SHOW IPA
See synonyms for atheism on Thesaurus.com
📓 High School Level
________________________________________
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism

“Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.”

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resou ... t-atheism/


Q: Was this thread born out of impotence and frustration because one is backed too often into a corner because of one’s positive claim and therefore burden of proof, in a pathetic attempt to make atheism have its own positive claim?
Q: Is bothering you so much the neutral position “lack of belief”- “Not believing X” that you try to force on us a universal “claiming: X is false”? (where X = God exists)

Exercise of imagination:

I claim "An immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn exists". (see what I did there?! :D )

Q: Do you believe me, that such a thing exits?

If not you may lack a belief in immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn.

You may say: "I don't believe you" and "show me the evidence".

Q: Then if I try to force you into the position "an immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn does not exists" would that be ok, an honest approach?

The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim: ""An immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn exists" 8-)

Enjoy!
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #9

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

benchwarmer wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:11 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #1]

Can I ask what the point of this thread is?
The edification of myself and others, especially on areas where there's disagreement, we can perhaps each learn something new.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:11 pm What should really matter is the position of any given person. Who cares what labels YOU place on them without asking them? You can call me a unicorn believer for all I care, but since it's not true you would be pointlessly labelling people.
Well there are several definitions for "atheism", a real one and some made up ones, I think its worth pointing this out in a forum where atheism and atheists participate.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:11 pm Some Christians really seem to have something stuck in their craw over what atheism really means. Somehow it must dismantle one of their beliefs or something, though I can't imagine why.
I do challenge atheists sometimes, I think there's a tendency to portray atheism and atheists as a more rational position than say theism, but I have always disputed that. The atheists often attempt to gain the intellectual high ground, to discredit theists as somehow intellectually inepts, misled victims of "religion" and so on, much of atheism is mere rhetoric too (consider Dawkins or Hitchens).
benchwarmer wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:11 pm Sherlock Holmes, what are you trying to accomplish here?

It would be like me starting a thread "To be clear: Christianity is not really a belief in the God of the Bible, it's really a lack of belief in observable facts". In other words, it would be a pointless attempt to pigeon hole all Christians without bothering to ask them what they actually believe or disbelieve.
Well clearly my OP states my position it is that the claim "Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods" is false.

I should also add that I used to be an atheist, I was a very vocal and rather harsh atheist, often decimating "religious people" since I studied science and theoretical physics, so I am more than aware of the strengths and weakness of atheist arguments, I used to argue them myself!
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Post #10

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

alexxcJRO wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:25 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:15 pm
How many definitions do you think there are for "atheism"?
Some definitions are not congruent with reality and some are more congruent with reality.

The two I posted were the first I found after a 5 second search on google. Typed “atheism definition”.

Here are more:
atheism
noun
Save Word
To save this word, you'll need to log in.

Log In

athe·ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
Definition of atheism
1a: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
b: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
2archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

atheism
noun

/ˈeɪθiɪzəm/

/ˈeɪθiɪzəm/
[uncountable]
1. lack of belief in the existence of God or godsOPPOSITE theism
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... ?q=atheism


atheism
[ ey-thee-iz-uhm ]SHOW IPA
See synonyms for atheism on Thesaurus.com
📓 High School Level
________________________________________
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/atheism

“Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.”

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resou ... t-atheism/


Q: Was this thread born out of impotence and frustration because one is backed too often into a corner because of one’s positive claim and therefore burden of proof, in a pathetic attempt to make atheism have its own positive claim?
Q: Is bothering you so much the neutral position “lack of belief”- “Not believing X” that you try to force on us a universal “believing X is false”? (where X = God exists)

Exercise of imagination:

I claim "An immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn exists". (see what I did there?! :D )

Q: Do you believe me, that such a thing exits?

If not you may lack a belief in immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn.

You may say: "I don't believe you" and "show me the evidence".

Q: Then if I try to force you into the position "an immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn does not exists" would that be ok, an honest approach?

The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim: ""An immaterial invisible extremely shy unicorn exists" 8-)

Enjoy!
So how many have you found? how many materially different definitions do you know of?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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