Can perfection be attained on Earth through sacrifice of your possessions??

[nobspeople]

New International Version
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus said perfection is possible?

For discussion:
1) Was jesus not being truthful when he said you can be perfect?
2) Or did he mean to sell everything, follow him and THEN be perfect in heaven?
3) As a christian, have you sold everything and followed jesus as he commanded?


Other translations available to gleam what may have been 'meant', if you don't like to understand what's literally written in the above provided quote.
New Living Translation
Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

English Standard Version
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Berean Study Bible
Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus was saying to him, "If you desire to be perfect, go, sell what you are possessing, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come, follow Me."

King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

New King James Version
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

NASB 1995
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

NASB 1977
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Amplified Bible
Jesus answered him, “If you wish to be perfect [that is, have the spiritual maturity that accompanies godly character with no moral or ethical deficiencies], go and sell what you have and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].”

Christian Standard Bible
“If you want to be perfect,” Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“If you want to be perfect,” Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

American Standard Version
Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come after me.”

Contemporary English Version
Jesus replied, "If you want to be perfect, go sell everything you own! Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and be my follower."

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

English Revised Version
Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Good News Translation
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven; then come and follow me."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, sell what you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then follow me!"

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me."

Literal Standard Version
Jesus said to him, “If you will to be perfect, go away, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come, follow Me.”

NET Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

New Heart English Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Weymouth New Testament
"If you desire to be perfect," replied Jesus, "go and sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have wealth in Heaven; and come, follow me."

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to him, 'If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.'

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #20]

How can it appear to be for everyone when it is a question and answer between two people? Christ and the rich young man?

Because it's in the bible and the bible is for everyone for all situations. At least that's how it's billed to many. If this isn't the case, EVERYTHING in the bible needs to be personalized to the point of it being utterly pointless to mankind - only to the individual. Thus, the individual can make it say whatever they want it to say top fit their chosen lifestyle agenda.
But fine. Let's say this is to ONE person.
What have you given up up, personally, to obtain perfection, as the 'story' indicates is necessary?

How exactly is it 'convenient', nobspeople?

Tam reads the story. Tam knows she's rich when compared to others, but decides:
Well, I don't to give up my riches, because I luv 'em, so I'm going to make up some other type of 'thing' to give up, claim the story isn't about riches and feel good about myself!

There are 'a lot of simple personas out there with a lot of simple people', or, 'people in general more complex than simple'?

Humanity is complex, some people and their minds are simple.
Really, didn't think it was that that hard

And 'treasure' does not have to equal material wealth. One's treasure can just be that thing that one holds most dear.

Sure doesn't. But, as I said, 'treasure' doesn't have to be where one's 'heart is' as you wrongly indicated by saying: "if your 'treasure' is your material wealth, then material wealth is where you 'heart' is, also."
See prior question and answer accordingly for finalization of this topic

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #20]

How can it appear to be for everyone when it is a question and answer between two people? Christ and the rich young man?

Because it's in the bible and the bible is for everyone for all situations.

To the bold: no it is not.

Where does it ever make that claim about itself?

Have you read the last chapter of "John"? John 21:15-23 Christ is giving Peter some instructions and Peter turns and asks about another disciple, and Christ says, "... what is that to you? You follow me."

At least that's how it's billed to many.

People believe and say all sorts of things.

If this isn't the case, EVERYTHING in the bible needs to be personalized to the point of it being utterly pointless to mankind - only to the individual. Thus, the individual can make it say whatever they want it to say top fit their chosen lifestyle agenda.

I don't see what warrants that extreme 'all or nothing' of a message. Some things are for individuals, some things are for whomever they apply, some things are only for Christians (the message to the seven churches in Revelation for instance), some things might have meaning to everyone.

Some things are definitely only for Israel.

But fine. Let's say this is to ONE person.
What have you given up up, personally, to obtain perfection, as the 'story' indicates is necessary?

The one person is the young man. Not me.

And I posted earlier about what it means (according to Christ) to be perfect (the perfection that we can attain). In that same first post, I think.

How exactly is it 'convenient', nobspeople?

Tam reads the story. Tam knows she's rich when compared to others, but decides:
Well, I don't to give up my riches, because I luv 'em, so I'm going to make up some other type of 'thing' to give up, claim the story isn't about riches and feel good about myself!

First, THANK YOU (truly)! I MUCH prefer straight talk over "insinuation".

As to your scenario, please note that not even in the story is 'rich compared to others' mentioned. "Rich compared to others" would describe any person who is not homeless/hungry/shoe-less, in which case almost everyone is simultaneously rich and poor when compared to others.

Please also note that you have to dismiss what I shared about the story so you can make/keep this judgment call about me, and you don't even know me. You don't know what I do or don't have (which is why you have to hedge your accusation to being rich 'compared to others'). I have always had what I need (my Lord and my Father in heaven know what I need). Beyond that it does not matter.

Nor does it matter as to what this account means. It is just ad hominem. I had no material wealth to give up back when I understood what I shared about this passage. So the motivation that you are assigning me just does not apply.

There are 'a lot of simple personas out there with a lot of simple people', or, 'people in general more complex than simple'?

Humanity is complex, some people and their minds are simple.
Really, didn't think it was that that hard

If you had said 'some people' it would not have been hard. But you said 'a lot of people', so it was confusing.

And 'treasure' does not have to equal material wealth. One's treasure can just be that thing that one holds most dear.

Sure doesn't. But, as I said, 'treasure' doesn't have to be where one's 'heart is' as you wrongly indicated by saying: "if your 'treasure' is your material wealth, then material wealth is where you 'heart' is, also."

Oh, those aren't my words.

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


You may disagree, but His words (more than yours or my opinion) can shed light on what He meant.

See prior question and answer accordingly for finalization of this topic

Sorry, I'm not sure what question you are referring to?


Peace again.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #22]

To the bold: no it is not.

Where does it ever make that claim about itself?

As I said originally: 'some say'. But this is good news. I'm glad I recycled the paper my bible was written on!!

Have you read the last chapter of "John"?

Unfortunately, after decades of being a christian, I have. Fortunately, I've actively forgotten much of it

People believe and say all sorts of things.

That they do - I've seen it in here first hand!

I don't see what warrants that extreme 'all or nothing' of a message.

Because if you take one story, and say 'that's not for everyone' it automatically challenges every other story. Therefore, logically, one can say: 'nope, this story isn't for me. Or that one. Or that one. Nope, not that one.' and so on. Eventually, you have discounted all the bible and its stories as 'not for me'. Unless, of course, one WANTS to accept this story and ignore that one to fit their chosen lifestyle agenda. Pickin-n-choosin, as they say!

The one person is the young man. Not me.

As I said: conveniently not you.

As to your scenario, please note that not even in the story is 'rich compared to others' mentioned. "Rich compared to others" would describe any person who is not homeless/hungry/shoe-less, in which case almost everyone is simultaneously rich and poor when compared to others.

Which is akin to the point I made. Rich is an ambiguous term here. You are, in fact, rich when compared to others - probably many others if you're not in a 3rd world country living in poverty. Therefore, this could apply to you. And likely should. What you're doing here is trying to justify how you're not rich and, therefore, don't have to give any of your riches up.
You might as well claim, if you're a woman, 'well, this is about a MAN, and I'm a woman, so it doesn't pertain to me'. The same logic applies.
You can do all the linguistic gymnastics you want, but that is the truth: you're rich compared to many others and Jesus told the rich young (wo)man to give up riches and follow him. Riches doesn't need to be $ as we both agree. It's about sacrificing.
Which begs the question:
What have you sacrificed, personally, Tam (if you want to be perfect), and given to the poor for your treasure in heaven, as the text insists?

[bjs1]

New International Version
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus said perfection is possible?

No. Jesus was saying that perfection is impossible. The point of that passage is that the guy who thought he was already perfect (“All these I have kept since I was a boy”) was still caught in greed. If it hadn’t been money, it would have been something else. The central message of this passage is that, no matter how good we think we are, no one is perfect.

So jesus lied - it's not possible to be perfect. I guess lying is OK if it proves a point? I would have expected jesus, if he's the thing many claim he is, be able to make a point being straight forward and not speaking in parables or riddles. If nothing else, those that edited and translated the bible should have seen this and corrected it to avoid any ambiguity.

This depends on your view of lying. Is telling a parable lying? Jesus said, “There was a certain man…” except that there was no man. It was a fictional story to make a point. Under a strict denotation of the word that is lying. However, the act of calling it a lie itself seems dishonest. It would seem to require an intentional effort to misunderstand what was happening.

If the parables are lies, then Jesus’ words to the Rich Young Man was also a lie. I would find such an approach disingenuous to the text, but everyone is free to their own interpretation.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #22]

To the bold: no it is not.

Where does it ever make that claim about itself?

As I said originally: 'some say'.

So it does not make that claim about itself. So what reason do you have to claim that everything written in it applies to everyone, ever. And if that is not true, then perhaps you might consider that you are wrong about the meaning of the text in question.

I don't see what warrants that extreme 'all or nothing' of a message.

Because if you take one story, and say 'that's not for everyone' it automatically challenges every other story.

Well so what? So you may have to ask about the meaning of a story, or think about it? Or if one wishes to know what Christ wants of one, then come to Him and ask HIM.

Therefore, logically, one can say: 'nope, this story isn't for me. Or that one. Or that one. Nope, not that one.' and so on. Eventually, you have discounted all the bible and its stories as 'not for me'. Unless, of course, one WANTS to accept this story and ignore that one to fit their chosen lifestyle agenda. Pickin-n-choosin, as they say!

Again (to the bold), so what? There are always going to be people who do that. There's no point in it, because Christ and God see what is in us. So best to see that here and now so one can work on what they lack.

The one person is the young man. Not me.

As I said: conveniently not you.

As stated in the previous post:

Please also note that you have to dismiss what I shared about the story so you can make/keep this judgment call about me, and you don't even know me. You don't know what I do or don't have (which is why you have to hedge your accusation to being rich 'compared to others'). I have always had what I need (my Lord and my Father in heaven know what I need). Beyond that it does not matter.

Nor does it matter as to what this account means. It is just ad hominem. I had no material wealth to give up back when I understood what I shared about this passage. So the motivation that you are assigning me just does not apply.

As to your scenario, please note that not even in the story is 'rich compared to others' mentioned. "Rich compared to others" would describe any person who is not homeless/hungry/shoe-less, in which case almost everyone is simultaneously rich and poor when compared to others.

Which is akin to the point I made. Rich is an ambiguous term here. You are, in fact, rich when compared to others - probably many others if you're not in a 3rd world country living in poverty. Therefore, this could apply to you. And likely should. What you're doing here is trying to justify how you're not rich and, therefore, don't have to give any of your riches up.

Lol, you keep talking as if you know something about me. You demonstrate by your accusation that you do not. Nor does any of that have any bearing on the meaning of the text. You accuse me of picking and choosing so I don't have to give up my 'riches' (assuming that I have riches and/or that I have never given any up)... but I already told you that could not have motivated my understanding of this passage.

You might as well claim, if you're a woman, 'well, this is about a MAN, and I'm a woman, so it doesn't pertain to me'. The same logic applies.

If that is what you think, then I suggest you [re]read my post because that same logic does not apply to what I shared.

You can do all the linguistic gymnastics you want,

I didn't do any; I think you might want to look at your own posts for that.

but that is the truth: you're rich compared to many others

A meaningless statement, and not even something mentioned in the text itself.

Stones and glass houses and all.

and Jesus told the rich young (wo)man to give up riches and follow him. Riches doesn't need to be $ as we both agree. It's about sacrificing. What have you sacrificed, personally, Tam (if you want to be perfect), and given to the poor for your treasure in heaven, as the text insists?

As I said in the previous post:

And I posted earlier about what it means (according to Christ) to be perfect (the perfection that we can attain). In that same first post, I think.



Peace again to you.

[Miles]

...No "ifs," "ands," or "buts" about it.

If you read it again, you can see there is an “if”.

But the "if" isn't qualifying one needs to do, but what one wants to do. HUGE difference. HUGE!


.

And I think there is a huge difference what you say and what Bible actually say. You said: “Jesus said to be perfect”, Bible says: "If you want to be perfect”. I think it is a different matter and does not mean what you say.

Ay caramba! .......... I give up. I truly give up.


.

[brunumb]

And I think there is a huge difference what you say and what Bible actually say. You said: “Jesus said to be perfect”, Bible says: "If you want to be perfect”. I think it is a different matter and does not mean what you say.

Are you suggesting that saying "If you want to be perfect” followed by "Do this" does not imply that by doing what was prescribed you would become perfect?

[nobspeople]

New International Version
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus said perfection is possible?

No. Jesus was saying that perfection is impossible. The point of that passage is that the guy who thought he was already perfect (“All these I have kept since I was a boy”) was still caught in greed. If it hadn’t been money, it would have been something else. The central message of this passage is that, no matter how good we think we are, no one is perfect.

So jesus lied - it's not possible to be perfect. I guess lying is OK if it proves a point? I would have expected jesus, if he's the thing many claim he is, be able to make a point being straight forward and not speaking in parables or riddles. If nothing else, those that edited and translated the bible should have seen this and corrected it to avoid any ambiguity.

This depends on your view of lying. Is telling a parable lying? Jesus said, “There was a certain man…” except that there was no man. It was a fictional story to make a point. Under a strict denotation of the word that is lying. However, the act of calling it a lie itself seems dishonest. It would seem to require an intentional effort to misunderstand what was happening.

If the parables are lies, then Jesus’ words to the Rich Young Man was also a lie. I would find such an approach disingenuous to the text, but everyone is free to their own interpretation.

Ah parables... they're akin to riddles. Riddles (parables) aren't the best way to promote correct information. The problem with them, in the bible, is that, again, we have to ask 'was this a parable?' on so many written stories that it can challenge the entire bible.
I suppose this is one of many reasons why there are so many different sects of the same religion. And why people take it upon themselves to 'make their own religion' based on their own picked belief.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #25]

So what reason do you have to claim that everything written in it applies to everyone, ever.

OMG. Really? Is that a question since there's no ? I've already answered that and have no reason to do so again.

Well so what?

What I'd expect to hear when one takes a story, amends it so it doesn't pertain to them, then challenges how others see the same story because it offends their chosen lifestyle. So what indeed.

Again (to the bold), so what?

See previous response

Please also note that you have to dismiss what I shared about the story so you can make/keep this judgment call about me, and you don't even know me.

Not at all. If you're rich, which you are compared to many, you're not doing what jesus said to do. Excuse all you want.

Nor does it matter as to what this account means. It is just ad hominem.

Ah. An way to excuse what you're told to do to keep your riches. Surely, jesus would be pleased.

If that is what you think, then I suggest you [re]read my post because that same logic does not apply to what I shared.

Your posts are unnecessarily long winded. Perhaps I missed some grand key to you? Meh.

I didn't do any (linguistic gymnastics); I think you might want to look at your own posts for that.

Projection. I simply provided a quote from your bible from your god you claim to worship and pointed out how you're not doing what it said because by not doing so it benefits you. If that's linguistic gymnastics, well, that's your issue. Speaking of projection, see below:

A meaningless statement (you're rich compared to many others), and not even something mentioned in the text itself.

Odd that you care about what's mentioned in the text, now, but when I provided the exact quote you cry foul.

And so on and so forth....

The simple facts are this:
Unless you live in poverty, you're rich.
Jesus said “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Lol, you keep talking as if you know something about me.

You're right. I don't (and wouldn't if I could).
Which is why I asked, more than once: Tam, if you want to be perfect, what possessions or treasure did you sell and give to the poor, so you'll have treasure in heaven, per the biblically provided quote?
Or are you going to discount it - again - because it means you won't be as comfortable as you are now?

[bjs1]

New International Version
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus said perfection is possible?

No. Jesus was saying that perfection is impossible. The point of that passage is that the guy who thought he was already perfect (“All these I have kept since I was a boy”) was still caught in greed. If it hadn’t been money, it would have been something else. The central message of this passage is that, no matter how good we think we are, no one is perfect.

So jesus lied - it's not possible to be perfect. I guess lying is OK if it proves a point? I would have expected jesus, if he's the thing many claim he is, be able to make a point being straight forward and not speaking in parables or riddles. If nothing else, those that edited and translated the bible should have seen this and corrected it to avoid any ambiguity.

This depends on your view of lying. Is telling a parable lying? Jesus said, “There was a certain man…” except that there was no man. It was a fictional story to make a point. Under a strict denotation of the word that is lying. However, the act of calling it a lie itself seems dishonest. It would seem to require an intentional effort to misunderstand what was happening.

If the parables are lies, then Jesus’ words to the Rich Young Man was also a lie. I would find such an approach disingenuous to the text, but everyone is free to their own interpretation.

Ah parables... they're akin to riddles. Riddles (parables) aren't the best way to promote correct information. The problem with them, in the bible, is that, again, we have to ask 'was this a parable?' on so many written stories that it can challenge the entire bible.
I suppose this is one of many reasons why there are so many different sects of the same religion. And why people take it upon themselves to 'make their own religion' based on their own picked belief.

You are obviously free to go on any rant about parables that wish. However, in this case it does not address the issue at hand. Do you think that the parables are lies? If so, then I can understand how you wound view Jesus’ words to the Rich Young Man as a lie. In both cases Jesus made statements that are inaccurate if taken literally. In my mind, this is a disingenuous approach to the text, but at least I could understand your mind set. If you don’t think that parables are lies then I would be interested in hearing your explanation as to why Jesus’ statement to the Rich Young Man was a lie.