It's said god sacrificed its son for the sins of mankind (though, surely, there are those that would argue that point, though this is not the place).
Let's assume that sacrifice is true and happened:
I didn't ask for it.
You didn't ask for it (at least initially - you may have once you were guilted into believing you need it).
I don't know of anyone, living or dead or to be alive, that asked for it without being guilted into believing you need it.
Yet, some claim if said sacrifice isn't accepted, those people will go to hell for eternity (again, this is debatable but not in this thread).
For discussion:
If one didn't ask for the sacrifice, and don't accept it, why should they be allowed to be punished for it by being sent to hell? Surely, god isn't so 'righteous' that it would allow those that it loves to be eternalized in hell for eternity? If god that petty?
Unaccepted sacrifice
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7960
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 932 times
- Been thanked: 3487 times
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #2Comes down to the Usual Thing in the end - God can do what He likes. Impose conditions to suit Himself and send people to Hell if they don't play ball.
Some will try to lay the blame on us (You send yourself to Hell; it's your choice') Of course it isn't and the choice is either to accept the evil (biting the bullet) on the grounds that God can do as He likes or if other's can't do that they can either cower under the blankets 'God has a morality we can't comprehend' or the have to reject Hellthreat and opt for UR, in which case there is no stick and the carrot isn't tempting enough. Christianity has lost it's main (but not only) selling point - fear.
Some will try to lay the blame on us (You send yourself to Hell; it's your choice') Of course it isn't and the choice is either to accept the evil (biting the bullet) on the grounds that God can do as He likes or if other's can't do that they can either cower under the blankets 'God has a morality we can't comprehend' or the have to reject Hellthreat and opt for UR, in which case there is no stick and the carrot isn't tempting enough. Christianity has lost it's main (but not only) selling point - fear.
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #3Why not? He had no compunctions aboutnobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:24 pm
For discussion:
If one didn't ask for the sacrifice, and don't accept it, why should they be allowed to be punished for it by being sent to hell? Surely, god isn't so 'righteous' that it would allow those that it loves to be eternalized in hell for eternity?
Having innocent women, children and infants killed.
Having two, bears maul and kill 42 boys for insulting one of his prophets
Allowing people to own others as property, which they can pass down to their children
Allowing such owners owners to beat their slaves as long as they don't die within a day or two
Killing all life on the planet except for eight people and a few animals because some of them were doing "evil things," all of which ....was in vain because the evil soon returned. ----He really blew this one.
Hardening a pharaoh’s heart and killing all firstborns of Egypt
Demanding that practicing homosexual males be put to death
Allowing the Devil/Satan to run amuck
Destroying a whole city and all the innocent people within it.
Being sexist
Creating evil
Thinking he deserves praise and worship
Having two, bears maul and kill 42 boys for insulting one of his prophets
Allowing people to own others as property, which they can pass down to their children
Allowing such owners owners to beat their slaves as long as they don't die within a day or two
Killing all life on the planet except for eight people and a few animals because some of them were doing "evil things," all of which ....was in vain because the evil soon returned. ----He really blew this one.
Hardening a pharaoh’s heart and killing all firstborns of Egypt
Demanding that practicing homosexual males be put to death
Allowing the Devil/Satan to run amuck
Destroying a whole city and all the innocent people within it.
Being sexist
Creating evil
Thinking he deserves praise and worship
.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #4[ * ]PLEASE NOTE I make no claims here, I am simply expressing what I believe based on the bible. Please take all sentences to be preceeded by the premise "I believe ..."
Eternal torture after death in a "hell" made for that purpose is not a biblical teaching. Biblically* Christ died so people could live forever in paradise, anyone that doesn't want to live forever will not be forced to.
JOHN 3:16
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,+ so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
JW
RELATED POSTS
What if individuals do not want to live on a paradise EARTH ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 00#p860000
What if someone does not want free will ?
viewtopic.php?p=1050469#p1050469
What If someone doesnt want to accept Christ's ransom sacrifice ? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1065504#p1065504
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 5993
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6607 times
- Been thanked: 3209 times
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #5And if they want to live forever what do they have to do?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:57 pm Eternal torture after death in a "hell" made for that purpose is not a biblical teaching. Biblically* Christ died so people could live forever in paradise, anyone that doesn't want to live forever will not be forced to.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7960
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 932 times
- Been thanked: 3487 times
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #6JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:57 pm Eternal torture after death in a "hell" made for that purpose is not a biblical teaching. Biblically* Christ died so people could live forever in paradise, anyone that doesn't want to live forever will not be forced to.
JOHN 3:16
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,+ so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
JW
RELATED POSTS
What if individuals do not want to live on a paradise EARTH ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 00#p860000
What if someone does not want free will ?
viewtopic.php?p=1050469#p1050469
What If someone doesnt want to accept Christ's ransom sacrifice ? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1065504#p1065504
I agree. A number of Christians would consider Heelthreat unacceptable. God would never have such an absurd and arbitrary procedure after death.
But we come back to the absurdity of the crucifixion as a way of obtaining paradise. Why was it even necessary? I'm just asking what's the rationale? I don't believe it so it doesn't arise, but for those who do, how does it make any sense? Other than Paul's idea that one man's obedience up to death atoned for the disobedience that lead to sin -death.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #7Well biblically if they dont want to live forever, they'll have to "do" what the opposite of "live" is.... to die! Do you see a 3rd biblical option?brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:43 amAnd if they want to live forever what do they have to do?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:57 pm Eternal torture after death in a "hell" made for that purpose is not a biblical teaching. Biblically* Christ died so people could live forever in paradise, anyone that doesn't want to live forever will not be forced to.
[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7960
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 932 times
- Been thanked: 3487 times
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #9Whatever. I am presenting biblical* teachings, I think there may be a subforum for Buddhism. Biblically there isn't any part of a person that continues to existence after biological function ceases. If someone doesn't want to live, they can just go ahead and ... not live. If by "oblivion"/nirvana, the Bouddhists mean, complete non-existence then it is not a 3rd option, its just another name for the 2nd.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:04 am How about Oblivion - or as the Buddhists call it, 'Nirvana'.
JW
[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 5993
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6607 times
- Been thanked: 3209 times
Re: Unaccepted sacrifice
Post #10Huh? Please address my actual question. If they want to live forever what do they have to do?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:00 amWell biblically if they dont want to live forever, they'll have to "do" what the opposite of "live" is.... to die! Do you see a 3rd biblical option?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.